Samuel had a daughter, it was his job to keep her as safe as he could within the live they lead, and when he failed, it was his body that set the events that doomed her in motion, even if he wasn't the one in control.

I've seen this speculation that Samuel feels some sort of guilt that it was the YED riding his body when Mary made her deal that is causing all his big guilt and driving his actions right now. But.... Mary made the deal. Mary made the deal of her own accord, and she made it for John. Samuel really had nothing to do with it, regardless of what meatsuit was housing Azazel. It would make more sense for John to feel guilty because of what Mary did then. Samuel could feel angst for raising her as a hunter, but that doesn't seem to be entering into it at all.

interlude: Am rereading Wrong Time, and am suddenly amused that they used the Grey Man myths to lead to Sam's reappearance.

Because Grey Man = Big Foot = Sasquatch = Sam

Was that ep before we knew there was an actual Heaven in this 'verse?

It was after Mary discorporated. But it was stated, just like Tessa stated, that she doesn't know where people went afterwards. Maybe these spirits? End up in purgatory. Maybe that's why Sampa supported Crowley's quest so thoroughly. Show has been very careful not to tell us where John and Mary are (other than John is no longer in hell). All we can do is guess.

So you're saying you haven't seen the transition in Dean's behaviour over the ten episodes? Huh.

I've seen this speculation that Samuel feels some sort of guilt that it was the YED riding his body when Mary made her deal that is causing all his big guilt and driving his actions right now. But.... Mary made the deal. Mary made the deal of her own accord, and she made it for John. Samuel really had nothing to do with it, regardless of what meatsuit was housing Azazel.

The beauty of all of it is that it's this huge interconnected thing, with no one ever learning from history and thus being doomed to repeat it. Sure, it wasn't John who tortured and taunted his son in Devil's Trap, but that didn't mean it didn't influence his decision in In My Time of Dying. So it wasn't Samuel in the driver's seat, but he still felt everything (as we've heard from pretty much everyone who has been through possession), and that it wasn't really them, that's never made one of them feel a hell of a lot better for the actions of their body.

that it wasn't really them, that's never made one of them feel a hell of a lot better for the actions of their body.

Even though Samuel was already dead by that point? When the YED used John to torment Dean, or Meg used Sam for that week, they were still alive and had to live with the consequences. Samuel had already shuffled off this mortal coil... until Crowley or one of his minions or angel sidekicks tracked him down in the afterlife and drug it all up again, I guess.

Show has been very careful not to tell us where John and Mary are (other than John is no longer in hell). All we can do is guess.

They really have been. I await the inevitable gut punch. Because I ~feel~ like we know they're in Heaven but it's never been stated at all.

So you're saying you haven't seen the transition in Dean's behaviour over the ten episodes? Huh.

Actually, once you typed it all out and I could read about just Dean and Cas's interactions and think about how they've progressed, I can see the transitions.

It was watching the actual show where it didn't strike me.

Which is what leads me to think I need to back off trying so hard to be fannish about SPN right now. It's exhausting and I'd rather expect little from the show and be amused than expect the show to be what it was to me and be disappointed.

I want to feel some happy watching and not have my friends need to recap an entire season's worth of character interactions before I can accept they are evolving.

Because once I read your post, I could see how they were. It's just I am so caught up in skeeve and an arc I can't understand at all yet when I am watching, that I miss the subtle things.

Even though Samuel was already dead by that point? When the YED used John to torment Dean, or Meg used Sam for that week, they were still alive and had to live with the consequences. Samuel had already shuffled off this mortal coil... until Crowley or one of his minions or angel sidekicks tracked him down in the afterlife and drug it all up again, I guess.

Samuel was mortally wounded, but didn't die until the demon left his body, if I'm reading the way it works in SPN correctly. Azazel stabbed the meatsack while possessed. Like Meg Masters (original flavor), the meatsack clung to life until the demon was gone.

Which is what leads me to think I need to back off trying so hard to be fannish about SPN right now. It's exhausting and I'd rather expect little from the show and be amused than expect the show to be what it was to me and be disappointed.

It helps! It's not my primary fandom right now, as you know, and that's brought back my ability to just enjoy it. It's like a good ex-ummfriend where the sexual chemistry between us may be gone, but the fondness is still there.

(Meanwhile, I'm off in my torrid state of Sherlock affection and naming my sockcock Watson. It's a thing.)

It's just I am so caught up in skeeve...

This sums up how I got derailed this episode. It's been good to read the arc speculation (and clarification) because it's lifted the focus for me to a better place.

I did notice someone say that the demon Sam stabbed was the one that looked twice at Dean, the one Dean asked if he wanted to kiss him.

Just tossing it out there.

Hey, what did Dean say about Meg's persuasive powers in hell? Was he implying she took over when Alistair was at lunch? I missed that and haven't rewatched yet.

He looked so sick when he said whatever it was, with the memory. JENSEN ACKLES, man. I continue to adore.