But then he wants to rip his daughter out of heaven, so I think maybe it's my perspective on him that is shifting around so awkwardly. I went from thinking he had some secret motivation to thinking he just is Wrong and as evil as some of the things Sam and Dean used to hunt.

But is Mary even in Heaven? Didn't Ash say that he hadn't seen them on the radar?

So if Sampa'd been up in heaven, no sign of Mary, carrying Dean-level feelings of guilt about her deal and her death, he'd have been an easy mark for a slick-talking salesman, telling him, hey, I can get your daughter back, for a price.

Anyone who was so desperate to get their daughter back, I would think wouldn't give up her sons to a demon to use and ghoultoys.

See, I don't get the link between that at all. He wants her back at the exclusion of all else. He's about willing to let the world burn around him to get his family member back. Seems insane, but consistent.

Dean expressed frustration that Cas was not all about them. For the first time they have unrelated goals, and they don't know how to relate. So he's mad when he doesn't fall into useful line. Dean expresses anger/regret when it's like Cas has gone cold. But then he also explains that he's doing regrettable things, and Dean looks sombre at that, not dismissive or cold.

The Cas sasses Dean with the "of course it's all about you" statement, and you can see the sting in Dean's eyes. From that point on, we haven't been shown Dean expecting Cas to show up, or being mad that Cas refuses to help (that argument was only with Sam)--he disagreed about what should be done, but they were having the argument about methods. We have been shown grateful Dean, and we've been shown "You don't have to explain yourself to us" Dean. His tone has definitely changed, and I don't see any reason to doubt that arc.

Sam's threats with Cas are like the deal with Meg. Cas can't kill Sam, so Sam has all the time in the world to try and work out how to kill him. He's totally safe. He will not be bug-squashed. Dean and Sam are all Cas has. I firmly believe that. Could maybe work a Balthazar into that, but it would take some jiggering.

I don't know what Dean is. He's making no sense to me.

How come?

I get the argument that he's trying to get something back that may cause Sam great pain, i.e. his soul. But I think to Dean, working with Sam the way he is, he can't see beyond how RoboSam has no empathy, no conscience, none of the things that made his Sam so very Sam.

And I think it might be hard for Dean to grasp that Sam's soul is that damaged. Dean spent forty years in hell, and all he knows is that he came out of it functional, with some nightmares and a lot of guilt. Cas put him back together, yes, but since Dean didn't witness that, he might be overlooking that part.

And if it's something else, I'm just curious. Dean always seems pretty consistent to me.

See, I don't get the link between that at all. He wants her back at the exclusion of all else. He's about willing to let the world burn around him to get his family member back. Seems insane, but consistent.

Yeah. And that's where Dean understands, but won't forgive. Because he's been there, he's done that, and they've all kept paying the price.

Samuel had a daughter, it was his job to keep her as safe as he could within the live they lead, and when he failed, it was his body that set the events that doomed her in motion, even if he wasn't the one in control. I bet the memories he had up in heaven probably centered around her, and not having those or her and knowing everything that went down, well, it may have flipped his gourd. I have sympathy, I don't see him as a monster, just a human who is too bull-headed to understand he's had his blindspot manipulated by a master of the art.

But is Mary even in Heaven?

Didn't she do that blissy looking fading up last we saw her? Very different than what I recall of those going down.

She did the same thing Tricia Helfer did which was very pretty and it was stated then they didn't know where she was going.

And it's apparently not just between up or down...have we seen any departing souls we know are going to hell?

I thought the last we saw of Mary was her catching on fire, which, in the way of ghosts, ended her earthly tenancy, but doesn't specify her destination.

So, Christian went down in a blaze of non-descriptiveness. Will we see Gwen again? This season feels a bit busy with all the different characters and non-aligning agendas. Will she be dropped like a bad habit, or incorporated into Neo-Team-Free-Will? Or as a vengeful agent against Dean and Sam? Or against Sampa?

and it was stated then they didn't know where she was going.

Was that ep before we knew there was an actual Heaven in this 'verse? My vague recollection is that we knew there was evil and Hell for a long time before we knew there were angels (and even an ep where the "angel" was just a spirit that hadn't moved on where they talked about it) and Heaven.

I'm actually going to back off on talking about what I am not liking because I really don't want to be That Person here. I am not feeling the squee, I miss the squee but I am really more sure than anything that I don't want to harsh other people's. I totally still plan on being part of the conversations but I have to accept I am not happily fannish about this show and see if that brings some of the enjoyment back for me.

Samuel had a daughter, it was his job to keep her as safe as he could within the live they lead, and when he failed, it was his body that set the events that doomed her in motion, even if he wasn't the one in control.

I've seen this speculation that Samuel feels some sort of guilt that it was the YED riding his body when Mary made her deal that is causing all his big guilt and driving his actions right now. But.... Mary made the deal. Mary made the deal of her own accord, and she made it for John. Samuel really had nothing to do with it, regardless of what meatsuit was housing Azazel. It would make more sense for John to feel guilty because of what Mary did then. Samuel could feel angst for raising her as a hunter, but that doesn't seem to be entering into it at all.

interlude: Am rereading Wrong Time, and am suddenly amused that they used the Grey Man myths to lead to Sam's reappearance.

Because Grey Man = Big Foot = Sasquatch = Sam