That's what I meant about the soul issue. If RoboSam is aboveground and knows what Sam's memories are, then what consciousness is attached to his soul? I'm not sure what the writers are implying is left in there to be tortured.

But at the same time, how is RoboSam even functioning? He has consciousness and intellect but no feelings?

Yeah, I think the writing on the whole soul front was sloppy at best.

I can see Michael being on board with torturing whatever part of Sam he can--the boys screwed up their big pre-ordained plan, and got Michael stuck in a cage to boot.

I don't understand anything about souls in SPN. To the point where I can't even speculate on any of this. None of it makes any sense to me.

I rewatched and wrote a stream o' conscious reaction. Sadly, I am going to post it here.

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I rewatched SPN:

Mark Sheppard hour? +1 Not that he isn't a scene chewer and totally overused, but I never think, "But Crowley would never do that." because he's a do that character.

Hooker joke, not speaking "little bitch", daily rape shower? - a lot. Seriously, this show gets skeevier and skeevier.

Soulless Sam is actually interesting to watch. But it's going ... nowhere.

Honestly, Dean calling Meg an "evil bitch" doesn't twig me.

No, really, I like soulless Sam. If they can find his soul, put it to rest and go on? I'm game. He's a better hunter. He's a fantastic character. Can the soulless learn to function in the human world?

This first scene with Sam, Dean and Meg is really actually good. Apart from Dean's snip at the dude demon.

Honestly, I really miss when the idea of a boss Crossroads Demon scared the shit out of them. Now the stakes have to be so high and it's getting kinda ludicrous to me as a viewer. Also Cas is an angel of the lord fighting a battle in heaven, he's kinda got more important things to deal with than one hunter's soul. I know it's the Sam and Dean show but they've brought in so many more elements that it doesn't ~feel~ like that anymore and they are just not the biggest game in town any longer.

Sampa bugs. Love the actor, hate the character and his random motivational shifts. Though Dean finally admitting that bringing Sam back was a colossal mistake in that it started Armageddon.

Cas watching porn was Mottsy. Not that "Cas being unhuman" isn't a win, it is. But oh I want a hall to watch from because it feels like a fan service moment with no other reason for existing. See also: later when Cas kisses Meg. Hot, but what the hell? Especially after he greets her by calling her an abomination.

Also, why does Sam kill the demon? Seriously, I've watched twice and I don't get it. Except as a way for Sam to have possession of the knife. Whatever. I am not going to stress on the logic for one minor demon.

Dean is so blind sometimes. But for good reason for all values of good that equal blind to the facts and incapable of thinking ahead to what is likely to happen. I can actually deal with that. Dean is that guy when it comes to Sam.

At least they are all suitably freaked about Hell hounds still.

Sam giving Meg the knife, logical and awesome. Her kissing Cas? Mottsy as hell in context of the show but a seriously hot image. Misha should get more kissing roles. That pizza man taught him well. Why'd Meg need the angel sword instead of the demon slaying knife? Whatever. I honestly am caring less and less.

Pretty sure that I like that Meg survived the Hell hounds. Pretty sure demonic Jonas Quinn having the angel poker is a bad thing. Really still not digging Sampa.

And now I try to ignore the torture scene. It is so skeevy I can't watch it again with all of my attention. So while we get excessively sexualized violence, I ponder.

Honestly, I think this show suffers horribly from, "OMG, we have a fantastic guest star in this one ep / short arc and must keep them on" to the detriment of the show.

And more male rape quips. Stay classy, show. At least we get a really smart soulless Sam with his bloody grin. That was awesome.

Okay, back to pondering - Misha is fantastic. I adore him. I've adored Cas. But they've written themselves into such corners that I enjoy him so much less this season. Mitch Pileggi was awesome as Grandpa. Once. Or in flashbacks. As this season's Sampa? I don't get it at all. Mark Sheppard? No, actually I like him. Overused and over the top. Every show I watch should have him on it. He can be the Star in the Reasonably Priced Car on Top Gear, an international arms dealer on NCIS: LA, a warlock on Vampire Diaries, he can join Sebastian Roché on General Hospital for some Crowley and Balthazar shenanigans, and he can voiceover some documentaries on supervolcanos. I'm good with that. It (continued...)

( continues...) can be like Where's Waldo on my dvr.

Seriously, the Dean and Sam and Meg show is kinda amusing me.

"Haven't seen you all season," was subtle enough that I laughed at the meta. If you weren't an uberfan, you'd miss it.

And I do like BAMF Castiel. Which is actually why I don't like him overused. He's crazy powerful.

Sad that the emo talk over the Impala (hi, baby, hi!) rang so false. Dean and Sam totally do not understand that Cas has more important things going on. They aren't his friends, they just want his power and mojo.

Did like Sam and Dean's emo talk. Felt more honest.

Maybe the soul is like a puppy in the cage that can't fight back or express you know, complex thoughts, but can suffer. And that's what would be reunited with Sam. The emotional experience of all that pain, without necessarily having any discrete memories.

Then again, maybe Luci and Mike are just sleeping it off and playing chess in their heads for distraction, and just petting Sam's soul inbetween. Maybe they honestly don't give a fuck. Because torturing Sam would be really petty. Angels are dicks, but everything we've seen them do so far has had a clear motivation. What do they gain by torturing Sam?

If RoboSam is aboveground and knows what Sam's memories are, then what consciousness is attached to his soul?

For a while I was thinking of it as though Sam had Dissociative Identity Disorder, with the two distinctive personalities: souled!Sam and RoboSam. And if the soul were to be put back in place RoboSam would be eliminated. And since RoboSam is aware and intelligent he would be unwilling and uncooperative when it came to anything that would lead, in effect, to killing himself off.

his random motivational shifts

What's been shifty about Sampa? He was close-mouthed, and then he revealed what his goal was. I didn't see anything changing.

Dean and Sam totally do not understand that Cas has more important things going on. They aren't his friends, they just want his power and mojo.

I also disagree with this quite soundly. They both understand Cas has things he prioritises over this. Dean seemed quite sincere, and before when he said he missed the old Cas, I bought that. And the old Cas didn't have much power or mojo, and they didn't give him shit for it.

Sam gets it too. Sam just doesn't give a shit. Not a shit is being given. And Dean doesn't have room for stuff that's not fixing his brother, but I think they both get it, and in other circumstances (soul, really) it would be very different.

But turns out that Michael totally didn't have to do that. So the idea that Cas thought he would doesn't back up the idea that Cas espoused much positivity about him.

It seemed Cas was basing that conjecture on the state of Raphael's vessel. We've since learned that Raphael is nihilistic, and wants to restart Armageddon so everything will be over with no concern for the billions of people that would kill. (Incidentally, Raphael's motivations also make no sense to me. He was toddling along, presumably enacting God's orders by watching over Chuck. But when summoned he declared that God was dead and suggested that Castiel's resurrection was thanks to Lucifer. And more recently he told Castiel he doubted God would bring him back a third time, completely ignoring that fact that the second time He did so was after destiny went awry and Lucifer and Michael were both imprisoned. Maybe Raphael's vessel didn't end up in an asylum because he was possessed by something too powerful, but because the thing possessing him was batshit crazy?)

What's been shifty about Sampa? He was close-mouthed, and then he revealed what his goal was. I didn't see anything changing.

After he was dragged out of Heaven, he gathered up a group of relatives he'd never met because they were family and teamed up with Sam. He comes from a long line of hunters.

So his motivation to work with a demon and not be out there saving people, hunting (and killing, not capturing for torture) things and doing the family business is because he wants to rip his own daughter out of heaven?

I can understand him missing her and grieving her. But she's in heaven and, one assumes, at peace. Why drag her down to a world where the rest of her family (save John, who did his stint in hell) is playing by demon rules and being torn apart? He's even willing to sacrifice her boys.

It's not like he's in the throes of immediate grief like Dean making his deal. I don't think Sampa came back right. So, yeah, shifty.

I also disagree with this quite soundly. They both understand Cas has things he prioritises over this.

I'd like to disagree with this. The Show I miss, this would be true.

But Sam is tricking Cas into showing up and then threatening to kill him if he doesn't help. And Dean is throwing a tantrum when Cas doesn't come when they call for him.

I wish it didn't feel to me like they miss the Cas that was at their beck and call, but that is precisely what I hear them saying they miss.

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And I don't want to be that person in an SPN thread who just talks about how disappointing they are finding the show. Because I've read that in seasons past and wondered what those people get from still watching the show. I know I am on the cusp of losing my fannishness for it.