If RoboSam is aboveground and knows what Sam's memories are, then what consciousness is attached to his soul?

For a while I was thinking of it as though Sam had Dissociative Identity Disorder, with the two distinctive personalities: souled!Sam and RoboSam. And if the soul were to be put back in place RoboSam would be eliminated. And since RoboSam is aware and intelligent he would be unwilling and uncooperative when it came to anything that would lead, in effect, to killing himself off.

his random motivational shifts

What's been shifty about Sampa? He was close-mouthed, and then he revealed what his goal was. I didn't see anything changing.

Dean and Sam totally do not understand that Cas has more important things going on. They aren't his friends, they just want his power and mojo.

I also disagree with this quite soundly. They both understand Cas has things he prioritises over this. Dean seemed quite sincere, and before when he said he missed the old Cas, I bought that. And the old Cas didn't have much power or mojo, and they didn't give him shit for it.

Sam gets it too. Sam just doesn't give a shit. Not a shit is being given. And Dean doesn't have room for stuff that's not fixing his brother, but I think they both get it, and in other circumstances (soul, really) it would be very different.

But turns out that Michael totally didn't have to do that. So the idea that Cas thought he would doesn't back up the idea that Cas espoused much positivity about him.

It seemed Cas was basing that conjecture on the state of Raphael's vessel. We've since learned that Raphael is nihilistic, and wants to restart Armageddon so everything will be over with no concern for the billions of people that would kill. (Incidentally, Raphael's motivations also make no sense to me. He was toddling along, presumably enacting God's orders by watching over Chuck. But when summoned he declared that God was dead and suggested that Castiel's resurrection was thanks to Lucifer. And more recently he told Castiel he doubted God would bring him back a third time, completely ignoring that fact that the second time He did so was after destiny went awry and Lucifer and Michael were both imprisoned. Maybe Raphael's vessel didn't end up in an asylum because he was possessed by something too powerful, but because the thing possessing him was batshit crazy?)

What's been shifty about Sampa? He was close-mouthed, and then he revealed what his goal was. I didn't see anything changing.

After he was dragged out of Heaven, he gathered up a group of relatives he'd never met because they were family and teamed up with Sam. He comes from a long line of hunters.

So his motivation to work with a demon and not be out there saving people, hunting (and killing, not capturing for torture) things and doing the family business is because he wants to rip his own daughter out of heaven?

I can understand him missing her and grieving her. But she's in heaven and, one assumes, at peace. Why drag her down to a world where the rest of her family (save John, who did his stint in hell) is playing by demon rules and being torn apart? He's even willing to sacrifice her boys.

It's not like he's in the throes of immediate grief like Dean making his deal. I don't think Sampa came back right. So, yeah, shifty.

I also disagree with this quite soundly. They both understand Cas has things he prioritises over this.

I'd like to disagree with this. The Show I miss, this would be true.

But Sam is tricking Cas into showing up and then threatening to kill him if he doesn't help. And Dean is throwing a tantrum when Cas doesn't come when they call for him.

I wish it didn't feel to me like they miss the Cas that was at their beck and call, but that is precisely what I hear them saying they miss.

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And I don't want to be that person in an SPN thread who just talks about how disappointing they are finding the show. Because I've read that in seasons past and wondered what those people get from still watching the show. I know I am on the cusp of losing my fannishness for it.

After he was dragged out of Heaven, he gathered up a group of relatives he'd never met because they were family and teamed up with Sam. He comes from a long line of hunters.

And then, once resurrected, his motivation was, it seems, to get Mary back in Earth. I don't understand the shifting part. We didn't know, but I never got the impression he was changing his mind.

But Sam is tricking Cas into showing up and then threatening to kill him if he doesn't help. And Dean is throwing a tantrum when Cas doesn't come when they call for him.

Yeah, Sam just doesn't care. That's who he is right now. Not caring. Drean didn't throw a tantrum--he tried to tell Cas he had to show up when Sam called, but I'm not even sure he finished the sentence. Since then he's given Cas a lot of grief about being a different person from before, but with Cas's last "regrettable things" speech and the pouring of the liquor, he seemed to have calmed down. He's absolutely micro-focussed on fixing Sam, more than anyone else is, but I think that's about an obsession with Sam's soul, not a dislike of other people, including Cas.

Or did you think he was lying when Cas reached out at the end of the episode? I mean, it seems clear to me Dean doesn't like it, but that he absolutely gets it.

eta: They didn't really have a Cas usefully at their beck and call before either. They had a Cas that fought on their side--they had a comrade.

I don't understand the shifting part.

I think it's how he's been presented to the audience. Anyone who was so desperate to get their daughter back, I would think wouldn't give up her sons to a demon to use and ghoultoys.

But then he wants to rip his daughter out of heaven, so I think maybe it's my perspective on him that is shifting around so awkwardly. I went from thinking he had some secret motivation to thinking he just is Wrong and as evil as some of the things Sam and Dean used to hunt.

Or did you think he was lying when Cas reached out at the end of the episode?

Given how he's been acting this season, yes. It felt platitude.

They keep talking about how Cas "owes" them and how Cas doesn't answer when they call. They've said more than once that the war in Heaven doesn't matter, Cas should show up and help them when they call.

It doesn't feel like a comrade thing to me. I want it to. And if we're going to keep talking about the war in Heaven, I'd like to see the comradeship (is that a word? no underline but it looks like I made it up. huh.) go both ways. Sam and Dean don't have a lot of friends. Cas could be an awesome one but what they are showing me isn't friendship.

I get that Sam just doesn't care because he doesn't have a soul. That actually works. But if he's so clearly logical, he should clearly be able to see that Cas can squash him like a bug and angels aren't easy to kill. So his threats don't work for me. The trickery? Sure. That fits soulless Sam to a T.

But Dean is ... I don't know what Dean is. He's making no sense to me.

But then he wants to rip his daughter out of heaven, so I think maybe it's my perspective on him that is shifting around so awkwardly. I went from thinking he had some secret motivation to thinking he just is Wrong and as evil as some of the things Sam and Dean used to hunt.

But is Mary even in Heaven? Didn't Ash say that he hadn't seen them on the radar?

So if Sampa'd been up in heaven, no sign of Mary, carrying Dean-level feelings of guilt about her deal and her death, he'd have been an easy mark for a slick-talking salesman, telling him, hey, I can get your daughter back, for a price.

Anyone who was so desperate to get their daughter back, I would think wouldn't give up her sons to a demon to use and ghoultoys.

See, I don't get the link between that at all. He wants her back at the exclusion of all else. He's about willing to let the world burn around him to get his family member back. Seems insane, but consistent.

Dean expressed frustration that Cas was not all about them. For the first time they have unrelated goals, and they don't know how to relate. So he's mad when he doesn't fall into useful line. Dean expresses anger/regret when it's like Cas has gone cold. But then he also explains that he's doing regrettable things, and Dean looks sombre at that, not dismissive or cold.

The Cas sasses Dean with the "of course it's all about you" statement, and you can see the sting in Dean's eyes. From that point on, we haven't been shown Dean expecting Cas to show up, or being mad that Cas refuses to help (that argument was only with Sam)--he disagreed about what should be done, but they were having the argument about methods. We have been shown grateful Dean, and we've been shown "You don't have to explain yourself to us" Dean. His tone has definitely changed, and I don't see any reason to doubt that arc.

Sam's threats with Cas are like the deal with Meg. Cas can't kill Sam, so Sam has all the time in the world to try and work out how to kill him. He's totally safe. He will not be bug-squashed. Dean and Sam are all Cas has. I firmly believe that. Could maybe work a Balthazar into that, but it would take some jiggering.

I don't know what Dean is. He's making no sense to me.

How come?

I get the argument that he's trying to get something back that may cause Sam great pain, i.e. his soul. But I think to Dean, working with Sam the way he is, he can't see beyond how RoboSam has no empathy, no conscience, none of the things that made his Sam so very Sam.

And I think it might be hard for Dean to grasp that Sam's soul is that damaged. Dean spent forty years in hell, and all he knows is that he came out of it functional, with some nightmares and a lot of guilt. Cas put him back together, yes, but since Dean didn't witness that, he might be overlooking that part.

And if it's something else, I'm just curious. Dean always seems pretty consistent to me.

See, I don't get the link between that at all. He wants her back at the exclusion of all else. He's about willing to let the world burn around him to get his family member back. Seems insane, but consistent.

Yeah. And that's where Dean understands, but won't forgive. Because he's been there, he's done that, and they've all kept paying the price.

Samuel had a daughter, it was his job to keep her as safe as he could within the live they lead, and when he failed, it was his body that set the events that doomed her in motion, even if he wasn't the one in control. I bet the memories he had up in heaven probably centered around her, and not having those or her and knowing everything that went down, well, it may have flipped his gourd. I have sympathy, I don't see him as a monster, just a human who is too bull-headed to understand he's had his blindspot manipulated by a master of the art.