there was a time when Castiel would have assumed the best of Michael.

When? When Michael's name came up it was pretty much in the negative as wanting the end of the world, and Cas was resisting it.

But I think Cas assumed Michael had good motives, and was not gratititously cruel. A certain respect. Now he takes it for granted Michael will join Lucifer in torturing Sam just to relieve the boredom? (Correctly I bet. Though it would interesting if Sam's soul was rescued and was all "tortured? Dude I was never tortured? Michael and Lucifer fought over whether I SHOULD be tortured the whole time. I think they thought continuing the battle was more entertaining than torturing me.") That is a change and I think growth. Remember at the very beginning Castiel was not happy about apocalypse but following orders like a good little soldier. He was the one who let Sam out to kill Lilith.

I just don't get Samuel wanting his daughter back more than his wife. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, except for how viewers know Mary as a character and not Deanna. Sloppy writing there.

My thoughts as well!

I have to watch that again. That was ... one of the most fucked up episodes I can remember.

And I really dug it!

She was the Djinn from the first ep of the season.

Ooooh. Thanks.

I think Cas assumed Michael had good motives, and was not gratititously cruel.

I don't recall Cas being anything other than adamantly against Michael's plans, and stating that Michael would do worse to Dean than Raphael did to his post. Do you have any citations of him saying anything positive about him.

I mean, Michael's full plan was to free Lucifer the whole time. Castiel never mentions Michael until this plan is revealed.

Cas was a good soldier when he thought he was following God's orders. Michael's been angelus non grata (or, you know, however that really declines) since his name was first mentioned outside of Houses Of The Holy. He had a full season of dickhood.

I don't recall Cas being anything other than adamantly against Michael's plans, and stating that Michael would do worse to Dean than Raphael did to his post.

I always took that to mean he was just so powerful, with so much grace, Dean wouldn't be able to act as his vessel and survive it. Not that Michael would abuse him in any way, although my impression was always that Michael was a self-righteous prig who couldn't see a shade of gray if it smacked him in the sword.

But in the cage, I can imagine a sort of tug of war for Sam's soul, and Michael causing damage that way. I can't really imagine what kind of torture Michael would do to Sam's soul on purpose, although I guess it could be collateral -- whatever he's trying to do Lucifer would have to go through Sam?

Except Lucifer wasn't in Sam's *soul,* just in his meatsuit, so that doesn't really work either.

I really wish the writers had gotten together and made a few decisions about the treatment of souls across the board.

I always took that to mean he was just so powerful, with so much grace, Dean wouldn't be able to act as his vessel and survive it.

But turns out that Michael totally didn't have to do that. So the idea that Cas thought he would doesn't back up the idea that Cas espoused much positivity about him.

Sure, there was a time when Cas trusted all angels, but Michael's tname has not been mentioned charitably specifically.

Oh, I don't think Cas was ever enthusiastic about what a good guy Michael was. That's not what I meant. Just that the two things were separate -- Michael having his own very narrow agenda and zero sense of humor, and Dean being able to survive housing him.

One thing that does confuse me is why at least Castiel thinks leaving Sam's soul down in the cage to be tortured forever is okay. Isn't the soul the "real" Sam?

One thing that does confuse me is why at least Castiel thinks leaving Sam's soul down in the cage to be tortured forever is okay. Isn't the soul the "real" Sam?

This bothered me at the time Cas said it. Perhaps he only thinks in the context of what would be better for Dean?

That's what I meant about the soul issue. If RoboSam is aboveground and knows what Sam's memories are, then what consciousness is attached to his soul? I'm not sure what the writers are implying is left in there to be tortured.

But at the same time, how is RoboSam even functioning? He has consciousness and intellect but no feelings?