when I was talking about Sam's lack of character development I didn't mean from the beginning of the show, I meant from the beginning of his so-called turn to the Dark Side.

You don't think the decisions he made, his trust and faith in Dean, all of that at the end of S5 were development or change?

And yes, that was somewhere in S3 when Sam said he was trying to be more like Dean.

I meant to respond to this, too:

I don't think that viewers were intended to dislike Sam, but I've seen a great deal of anti-Sam sentiment.

Sure. But that doesn't mean they're right, or that they're understanding what the writers are trying to do. Also, I guess when I've seen some of that reaction, it seems like ranty little tweens whose understanding of the show lacks a certain level of sophistication.

You don't think the decisions he made, his trust and faith in Dean, all of that at the end of S5 were development or change

Amy -- I've been looking at the list of S5 titles and I think I'm getting tired because I'm not following your train of thought... at the end of 4 when everything went pear-shaped, Sam was determined to do whatever it took, expecting not to survive the event, to stop Lucifer. He did the same at the end of season 5. All along, even when he was fighting with Dean he believed that Dean wanted humanity to survive. That never changed. I know at one point after Dean's return from hell he thought Dean was physically weak, and at some point he apparently changed his mind, but that's a change of opinion not character development. I'm sorry, obviously I'm missing your point.

All along, even when he was fighting with Dean he believed that Dean wanted humanity to survive. That never changed. I know at one point after Dean's return from hell he thought Dean was physically weak, and at some point he apparently changed his mind, but that's a change of opinion not character development.

What I saw in S4 was still the rebellious boy who thought he could do it all on his own. I don't think that's a bad thing, but I think it's more mature, and shows some wisdom, that S5 Sam had learned to accept help, and admit his mistakes, as well as trade vengeance for the greater good (stopping Lucifer with the right motivation, and doing it right, instead of stopping Lillith out of pure revenge, and doing it a bit heedlessly).

I don't think character development has to mean, or should mean, huge *change*. Most people don't change dramatically as they get older, or even go through big experiences. They deepen, the approach to things might be altered, but at core you've still got the same base traits.

So I'm not expecting Sam to become someone new at all -- I'm expecting to see him use what he's learned about life and hunting and family in new ways, but ways that fit his essential personality, which is, I think, basically good, very intelligent, a little critical and a little egotistical, independent, disciplined, and passionate. For me, that makes a change of opinion, as you said, and the actions to back it up, character development.

It keeps ... confusing (okay, no, bothering) me that the selling of souls to Crossroads demons is being referred to as having no souls.

Has there ever been anything said about the souls actually being taken at that point? Or it is just there is a lien on the soul?

If you buy a house with a mortgage, it's not really entirely yours. It's the bank's and you live there so long as the terms are abided by.

Or, to be even more literal, a reverse mortgage. You live there but once you die, the house is whoever gave you the reverse mortgage.

In lj zimshan did a meta post prior to the airing of 6.06 about the state of Sam, and it's chock full of pictures to support her theories. She talks about the red/blue color meta, and says it's been switched this year, which I have to say I never noticed. She also discusses the whole soul/lack of soul option, and how we don't really know what that means in the SPN world. It's an interesting read for those who like that sort of analysis.

They're selling Sam's Charger. There's a link there to the ebay auction, in case anybody's actually interested.

The guy who buys, sells, and maintains the show's onscreen vehicles contacted this fan--she's the one who bought Truckzilla--and asked her to put the word out in fandom. So, you know, there you go, if you're in the market.

Given the history with soul dealing, it seems to me Bobby retained possession of his soul until his bill would come due with Crowley in 10 years. Show has never indicated the soul was taken at the time the deal was made. What fun would that be for a demon if the human didn't care that he/she will be burning in hell in 10 years? This is delicious torture from a demon's perspect (one would assume).

Sam's soul was taken, given away or lost on his way back from the pit. I'm willing to bet Crowley (King of Hell) had something to do with it just because of Sam's and Crowley's brief interaction in the graveyard in Scotland.

Okay I loved that episode even as hurt-y as it was.

When Dean gave that speech to the God about essentially being a killer and that Sam is just like him, I had my "woah" moment. Serial killer brothers indeed, Criminal Minds did a story about you. Someone here made that parallel before I seem to remember.

I am not sure yet where the writer's are going, but if you see Dean as the big brother/parent figure at all then that was a pretty profound moment of self-awareness on his part, recognizing his influence (though only the destructive aspect) on everyone in his life, mostly Sam. It gave me chills when he said he was a killer. Sam's beat down seemed as much about how much Dean's lost as about trying to make Sam feel something (and possibly pragmatic, I assume he's headed to Bobby's). In the promo Sam looked fine. I hope Cas heals Sam and we don't have a repercussion free Sam next week. That was a serious beat down.

I'm intrigued by souless Sam. I don't doubt the big arc will be getting his soul back. Cass, I also don't get the comparison to crossroad demons. The souls in every case seemed to remain with their occupant, I assume 'til their deal's up and they're dead. This is something else. I wonder if the alpha monsters are related or incidental.

Morgana, for me, the ship has sailed on Sam returning to any semblance of his past life. I let that go pretty much in S1 during Devil's Trap. I think he's on a different path, and I'm VERY interested in where it takes him. I agree with Amy, I think there's character growth there, it's just deeply twisted and painful, like his brother's. These guys are killers. Can they ever be anything else? I guess that remains to be seen.

Oh show, really attention whore? I wish they hadn't said that. I would have been fine with our God of the week and potentially even the unfortunate boob job gag if only they hadn't called it out as attention whoring. Sigh. I'd like the show to stop using the word whore, it just makes me cringe with their women-issues every time.

Lisa, on the other hand, rocked! Yes, she said what she absolutely should have. She was tough as nails and I approve. Now I am conflicted. Easy out right here, the character can walk away unscathed, unsullied by their creepy women-issues. It's tempting to wish for that to be it. I like Lisa though, and really I hope this isn't the last we see of her and Ben.

I can see Ben doing something stupid and willful against her wishes that brings the boys back into her life.

Easy out right here, the character can walk away unscathed, unsullied by their creepy women-issues. It's tempting to wish for that to be it. I like Lisa though, and really I hope this isn't the last we see of her and Ben.

This is me.

And I think Amy is spot on (as usual) with her analysis of Sam.

I was worried this was turning into a yawn season like season three was for me. But it's not. I was glued to the screen last night and when the screen went to credits, I looked at the clock not believing it was over yet. I don't know where Sera is going or if I will like it, but it is keeping me captivated.

For the record, I still love Sam. I don't read other places that don't love both of my boys.

I am pissed that they blatantly had Bobby say Dean was his favorite while under the influence of the truth spell. From another parental figure like Ellen or even John that wouldn't have bothered me (beyond, you know, thinking "poor Sam!" while nodding), but I think it was a mistake to have Bobby make that choice.

You know, I don't quite get why everyone thinks it's so inexplicable that various monsters are all stirred up and acting weird. Over the last two years there were angels and demons fighting all over the place, with Lucifer being freed, causing major havoc across the globe, and apparently killing a fair cross section of pagan gods. And those creatures weren't in the know about the Apocalypse being cancelled in the season 5 finale. It stands to reason those events would have been like kicking over a hornet's nest for all the lower grade supernatural menaces.