Matt, I'm thinking the difference might be where the soul is, and if it still exists. Bobby lived more than a year without his and didn't change, but it was still extent -- Crowley just had it.

If it turns out Sam's soul was destroyed, that might be what makes it different?

That was the most broken I've ever seen the two of them. Always before, they were working toward the same thing, on the same page, so to speak, even if they were coming at it from different angles. (Like when Sam believed Ruby, he at least had good intentions in his favor.)

But here ... even Sam knows something's wrong with him, and yet he can't even really care, because that's the whole problem. And Dean is wrecked, completely alone, and now thoroughly angry. I kept waiting for him to say, "Do you feel this?" when he was beating the shit out of Sam.

BOYS.

"Do you feel this?"

That was brutal in so many ways.

"I'm not a dad, I'm a killer."

::cries and cries and cries::

It's just.... looking over the list of episode titles, Season 4 was one long endless slog of the storyline providing more and more reason to hate Sam ("Stop your brother," blood drinking, fucking Ruby, the Siren-influenced argument, releasing Lucifer). Season 5 gave us even more (especially oh my God the trip to heaven, even though everyone ought to realize that it was all manipulated by Zachariah) before Sam was allowed a chance at redemption by throwing himself into the Pit at the end of 5.22.

And here we are right back at OMGWTFEVULSAMMUH! again. Is this the character now, and this is just what he will always be, and those of us who have been hoping that he would have a chance to return to something closer to where he began will never see that happen? Or do the writers truly believe that they are creating some sort of character development? In which case they never studied any of the same texts I did, because it doesn't count as development if nothing actually changes.

That beatdown came from a place I can totally understand, but by the last blow or two I was just cringing with angst and sadness. BOYS.

Also, everything with Bobby in this ep was LOVE.

Toasty-O's:

I don't think that not having a soul makes him "evil." More... chaotic neutral, to use a gaming term. He made the choice to let Dean be turned because, without the influence of emotion/feelings/"soul" to tell him not to, it was the best decision. He didn't do it out of a sense of malice, just because it seemed like a means to an end.

That beatdown came from a place I can totally understand, but by the last blow or two I was just cringing with angst and sadness

I have to admit I heard it rather than watched it, because I couldn't bear to see Dean beating on Sam yet again. I know Sam deserved it, I'm not even arguing that. Dean just lost everything - Lisa, Ben, and Sam - and Dean's default reaction is to strike out when he's attacked. So I would be more surprised if he didn't punch Sam. I just couldn't bring myself to watch it happen. (Just a question -- did Sam fight back, or did he accept it?)

He went down pretty much after the first or second punch. I'd guess he was probably stunned or unconscious by that point. There was blood on his face by the fourth punch or so.

A reason for who to hate Sam, Morgana? Other hunters mistrusted him, sure, and Dean got angry when he wouldn't listen to him about Ruby, but he never hated him. And I don't think the viewers were supposed to hate him -- Sam has always been portrayed, in my eyes, as someone whose life has been manipulated, who *feared* he was evil inside, but who wasn't. Even with Ruby, even with the blood drinking, he had good intentions. He really thought he was going to fix everything by killing Lillith.

And Sam's character has developed, for me -- he grew up. He got a little cynical, yes, but he's gone from a rebellious boy (and one who was rebelling at Stanford!) to a man determined to do good, to fight for what he believes, and to save as many people as he can from things only he and his brother, and a handful of others, can.

Right now he apparently doesn't have a soul, yes. But I hardly think Sera Gamble, who loves these boys the way we do, is going to make him evil for good. I don't think viewers want that, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't either. Whatever this is, I imagine it's going to be part of this season's arc, and Dean will get to the bottom of it.

Cinnamon toast:

I just realized, too, that it might be worth remembering the new opening credits, with the backward, shattering mirror.

Dean even said that Sam was acting like him. And if Gamble's writers use metaphor at all like Joss's did on Buffy, this soulless Sam is a great example of emptiness -- the emptiness of their lives in terms of connections and permanence and safety. I get the feeling Dean is looking at him like his worst nightmare has come true, you know? The world has totally shifted, monsters are literally coming out from under the wrong beds, and Dean's little brother -- the earnest, caring, emo one who kept getting his heart broken by cases -- is now completely without feeling.

I think they're going somewhere with it, in other words, and I'm wondering if that mirror image is a clue.

Amy, when I was talking about Sam's lack of character development I didn't mean from the beginning of the show, I meant from the beginning of his so-called turn to the Dark Side.

And I don't think the viewers were supposed to hate him

Ah, I see we haven't been reading the same posts then. I don't think that viewers were intended to dislike Sam, but I've seen a great deal of anti-Sam sentiment. My blood pressure would be much better if I just stayed here.

Dean even said that Sam was acting like him.

There was an almost throwaway line or two in a scene before Dean went to hell when Sam had started getting harder, and Dean wanted to know what was going on, and Sam told him that he was trying to be more like Dean. And Dean looked stunned, and not entirely pleased, even though you would have expected him to be happy at the thought. And they were light-years away from the level of brokenness they're at right now. (Was it "Malleus Maleficarum"?)