Toasty-O's:

I don't think that not having a soul makes him "evil." More... chaotic neutral, to use a gaming term. He made the choice to let Dean be turned because, without the influence of emotion/feelings/"soul" to tell him not to, it was the best decision. He didn't do it out of a sense of malice, just because it seemed like a means to an end.

That beatdown came from a place I can totally understand, but by the last blow or two I was just cringing with angst and sadness

I have to admit I heard it rather than watched it, because I couldn't bear to see Dean beating on Sam yet again. I know Sam deserved it, I'm not even arguing that. Dean just lost everything - Lisa, Ben, and Sam - and Dean's default reaction is to strike out when he's attacked. So I would be more surprised if he didn't punch Sam. I just couldn't bring myself to watch it happen. (Just a question -- did Sam fight back, or did he accept it?)

He went down pretty much after the first or second punch. I'd guess he was probably stunned or unconscious by that point. There was blood on his face by the fourth punch or so.

A reason for who to hate Sam, Morgana? Other hunters mistrusted him, sure, and Dean got angry when he wouldn't listen to him about Ruby, but he never hated him. And I don't think the viewers were supposed to hate him -- Sam has always been portrayed, in my eyes, as someone whose life has been manipulated, who *feared* he was evil inside, but who wasn't. Even with Ruby, even with the blood drinking, he had good intentions. He really thought he was going to fix everything by killing Lillith.

And Sam's character has developed, for me -- he grew up. He got a little cynical, yes, but he's gone from a rebellious boy (and one who was rebelling at Stanford!) to a man determined to do good, to fight for what he believes, and to save as many people as he can from things only he and his brother, and a handful of others, can.

Right now he apparently doesn't have a soul, yes. But I hardly think Sera Gamble, who loves these boys the way we do, is going to make him evil for good. I don't think viewers want that, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't either. Whatever this is, I imagine it's going to be part of this season's arc, and Dean will get to the bottom of it.

Cinnamon toast:

I just realized, too, that it might be worth remembering the new opening credits, with the backward, shattering mirror.

Dean even said that Sam was acting like him. And if Gamble's writers use metaphor at all like Joss's did on Buffy, this soulless Sam is a great example of emptiness -- the emptiness of their lives in terms of connections and permanence and safety. I get the feeling Dean is looking at him like his worst nightmare has come true, you know? The world has totally shifted, monsters are literally coming out from under the wrong beds, and Dean's little brother -- the earnest, caring, emo one who kept getting his heart broken by cases -- is now completely without feeling.

I think they're going somewhere with it, in other words, and I'm wondering if that mirror image is a clue.

Amy, when I was talking about Sam's lack of character development I didn't mean from the beginning of the show, I meant from the beginning of his so-called turn to the Dark Side.

And I don't think the viewers were supposed to hate him

Ah, I see we haven't been reading the same posts then. I don't think that viewers were intended to dislike Sam, but I've seen a great deal of anti-Sam sentiment. My blood pressure would be much better if I just stayed here.

Dean even said that Sam was acting like him.

There was an almost throwaway line or two in a scene before Dean went to hell when Sam had started getting harder, and Dean wanted to know what was going on, and Sam told him that he was trying to be more like Dean. And Dean looked stunned, and not entirely pleased, even though you would have expected him to be happy at the thought. And they were light-years away from the level of brokenness they're at right now. (Was it "Malleus Maleficarum"?)

when I was talking about Sam's lack of character development I didn't mean from the beginning of the show, I meant from the beginning of his so-called turn to the Dark Side.

You don't think the decisions he made, his trust and faith in Dean, all of that at the end of S5 were development or change?

And yes, that was somewhere in S3 when Sam said he was trying to be more like Dean.

I meant to respond to this, too:

I don't think that viewers were intended to dislike Sam, but I've seen a great deal of anti-Sam sentiment.

Sure. But that doesn't mean they're right, or that they're understanding what the writers are trying to do. Also, I guess when I've seen some of that reaction, it seems like ranty little tweens whose understanding of the show lacks a certain level of sophistication.

You don't think the decisions he made, his trust and faith in Dean, all of that at the end of S5 were development or change

Amy -- I've been looking at the list of S5 titles and I think I'm getting tired because I'm not following your train of thought... at the end of 4 when everything went pear-shaped, Sam was determined to do whatever it took, expecting not to survive the event, to stop Lucifer. He did the same at the end of season 5. All along, even when he was fighting with Dean he believed that Dean wanted humanity to survive. That never changed. I know at one point after Dean's return from hell he thought Dean was physically weak, and at some point he apparently changed his mind, but that's a change of opinion not character development. I'm sorry, obviously I'm missing your point.

All along, even when he was fighting with Dean he believed that Dean wanted humanity to survive. That never changed. I know at one point after Dean's return from hell he thought Dean was physically weak, and at some point he apparently changed his mind, but that's a change of opinion not character development.

What I saw in S4 was still the rebellious boy who thought he could do it all on his own. I don't think that's a bad thing, but I think it's more mature, and shows some wisdom, that S5 Sam had learned to accept help, and admit his mistakes, as well as trade vengeance for the greater good (stopping Lucifer with the right motivation, and doing it right, instead of stopping Lillith out of pure revenge, and doing it a bit heedlessly).

I don't think character development has to mean, or should mean, huge *change*. Most people don't change dramatically as they get older, or even go through big experiences. They deepen, the approach to things might be altered, but at core you've still got the same base traits.

So I'm not expecting Sam to become someone new at all -- I'm expecting to see him use what he's learned about life and hunting and family in new ways, but ways that fit his essential personality, which is, I think, basically good, very intelligent, a little critical and a little egotistical, independent, disciplined, and passionate. For me, that makes a change of opinion, as you said, and the actions to back it up, character development.

It keeps ... confusing (okay, no, bothering) me that the selling of souls to Crossroads demons is being referred to as having no souls.

Has there ever been anything said about the souls actually being taken at that point? Or it is just there is a lien on the soul?

If you buy a house with a mortgage, it's not really entirely yours. It's the bank's and you live there so long as the terms are abided by.

Or, to be even more literal, a reverse mortgage. You live there but once you die, the house is whoever gave you the reverse mortgage.