I'm still hazy on this concept of man's man, possibly because I'm cheerfully butcher (my love of surface femme aside) than most men, possibly because that's not how I think of gender in my own little warped head. Plus, man's man to me implies a man who is most comfortable in the social company of men, adept at masculine things, whatever those are.

Mostly, in a partner of either gender, I look for someone comfortable enough with the self to not feel like they're in a constant state of facepalm being around me. Thus, I gravitate to freaks and weirdos, for that's my comfort zone.

I look for someone comfortable enough with the self to not feel like they're in a constant state of facepalm being around me

That's kind of how Jamie from "Monster Movie" came across to me.

competence kink. I think in order to be classified as a man's man or a woman's woman, an individual has to be competent. With some things it takes practice, but the attitude, the belief in one's ability--that's adult.

This is pure porn to me. Seriously.

I love all y'all's minds and Erin and Beverly said so well what is in my head.

In re: reading my mind. I was thinking of John, but with a bit of humor still intact.

I know a man like that in real life...married, of course...someone who expects you to be your best but doesn't judge when you are not. He'll cuddle a child, notice a nearly inaccessible blown light bulb and not take 'no, it's okay' for an answer. He'll then climb up the cabinets and do crazy trapeze moves to replace the bulb, all the while making funny faces to make the child laugh.

Yeah, I saw that happen. Sigh.

That's kind of how Jamie from "Monster Movie" came across to me.

Yeah, me too. She was pretty awesome that way

Huh. Interesting point. So in a way, would a redeemed (or mostly redeemed) Ruby be his ideal woman?

Or Condi Rice.

Mostly, in a partner of either gender, I look for someone comfortable enough with the self to not feel like they're in a constant state of facepalm being around me. Thus, I gravitate to freaks and weirdos, for that's my comfort zone.

I've really had to question my motivations for being drawn to men who are NOT comfortable with themselves in any capacity other than their work.

Sam is uber-focused but Dean still knows how to enjoy those brief moments between the terror.

I'm still rifling through my mental rolodex to find popular culture women's women.

I know some in real life. They are earthy, not afraid to call a thing by its right name, are comfortable in their own skins and support you in being the same. There is the strong nurturing motivation BUT one that enriches the nurturer as well as the nurturee. None of that martyrdom dodge. She takes responsibility for herself on all levels and, as such, makes you want to be the best you can be.

One of the strongest feminists I know is a woman who wears the Peter Pan collar and works within the old boy's network. Without taking credit for it, or even being noticed doing it, she uses feminine wisdom to make everyone she touches better. That is true power. So much more than the 'don't open that door for me!' fist shaking I've done in the past.

Or Condi Rice.

This? While repellent, is eerily apt. I do want Sam to regain, and integrate, enough of the sweetness I think is also innate with him. And to be all right with that.

Sam is uber-focused but Dean still knows how to enjoy those brief moments between the terror.

Yes. Which is why he's well on his way to being a man's man. A much more gentle one, perhaps, than John. Maybe not.

I saw a line somewhere (was it here?), about how Dean is the blunt object and Sam is the blade. Works very well for me.

I so would not want to be on Sam's bad side: he is by far the most dangerous of the Winchesters.

Sharp instrument. Both are line quotes: Daddy's little blunt object. Unfortunately I can't cite the sharp instrument quote.

As an aside, my desk is in a corner of the family room, and during the span of posting here, H, StY and I have been arguing--in that sense of lively discussion from differing points of view--gender, religious, and sexual orientation issues. Much of which is cross-pollination. "Philosophy in stereo!" (to echo "Death by stereo!" from Lost Boys)

someone who expects you to be your best but doesn't judge when you are not. He'll cuddle a child, notice a nearly inaccessible blown light bulb and not take 'no, it's okay' for an answer. He'll then climb up the cabinets and do crazy trapeze moves to replace the bulb, all the while making funny faces to make the child laugh.

Yes. Exactly this. They do exist. I am married to one, more often than not. Of course there are times when he thinks he's the company commander, or he gets his head up his butt about one social issue or another, or has a wrong-headed idea about politics.* But for the most part, this is a good description.

*this explains, of course, why those infrequent and minor lapses when I am whiny and want to be babied, or am a termagent about some trifle or other do not affect my overall wonderfulness. Nobody can be on all the time. But when the chips are down, whoever's less damaged has to step up, and trust that it'll be okay when your own leg (mind, heart) is too broke to function.