I would post in the SPN thread - but spoilery for Torchwood, you know?

Torchwood:

That was bleak. Bleak covered with bleak sauce, with a side order of bleak.

I don't see killing Ianto as homophobic. But I don't compare it to Tara as much as I do to (whitefont because spoilery for a non-Boxed Set show) Danny on Harper's Island. Yeah, the gay man/black man dies. But so does everybody else, and he's one of the last to fall.

Ianto was less a shock to me than Clem. Whether that was because I was spoiled for Ianto, or because Ianto chose the Torchwood life with all its risks (in both cases, unlike Clem), I don't know.

I could see Ianto as Jack's first male lover in the sense of long-term relationship. The Captain Jack of Doctor Who didn't seem like someone who had lasting attachments of any kind. On the other hand -- his relationship with the 1940 Jack Harkness didn't exactly seem like an overnight fling.

I liked the use of Rhys. He was the group's Xander, only more so. The ordinary guy, no special knowledge or ability of any kind, who somehow stumbled into the situation. And yet occasionally proved useful.

I liked the use of Andy, too. Especially in ep 5, where he figures out what's really going on, and takes action.

So where does the show go from here? It isn't just killing Ianto, it's that You have Gwen, maybe Jack. Maybe Lois. Possibly Andy and Rhys, though they work better as recurring outside characters. Bridget Spears as a recurring government liaison-type character. But you don't really have a team in place.

I don't see killing Ianto as homophobic. But I don't compare it to Tara

I only compared it to Tara in terms of the utter wanktastic batshittery that's come from the outraged (OUTRAGED, I SAY!) fans.

Oh. OK. I guess it's that I thought that a non-batshit (wrong, but non-batshit) argument could be made re Tara.

What bothers me most about Ianto was (1) the sense that they were killing off everyone, and (b) Jack lost Ianto, and then the very next day had to sacrifice his own grandson -- it all just seemed a little too much.

I'm not outraged or taking the plot development as a slap in the face to the gay community. But on the other hand, in the last year or so RTD has managed to pretty thoroughly carve away the characters and relationships that interested me.

I guess it's that I thought that a non-batshit (wrong, but non-batshit) argument could be made re Tara.

It's not the content of "You killed Ianto! [or Tara]" that I find batshit -- it's the unfuckingbelievably over-the-topness of the reaction and threats and OMG THE ENTITLEMENT. Like whatever batshit group arose after Tara's death -- kittens, or something? Baaaaaaaatshit. Or the person (people?) who started BringWashBack.com (or whatever it was) before Serenity even opened.

It sucks when beloved characters get axed (Doyle, we hardly knew ye). But making death threats and internet campaigns for the character to be returned because they, the fans, "own" the character (and yes, this was a return-Ianto argument -- the TW characters don't belong to Davies; they "belong" to the fans because the show exists in a wider pop-cultural context, and since the characters belong to the fans, RETURN IANTO NOW) is baaaaaaaaatshit crazy.

But making death threats and internet campaigns for the character to be returned because they, the fans, "own" the character (and yes, this was a return-Ianto argument -- the TW characters don't belong to Davies; they "belong" to the fans because the show exists in a wider pop-cultural context, and since the characters belong to the fans, RETURN IANTO NOW).

Same crap that goes on in the book reading community. It's insane, the entitlement. I said it before, I'll keep saying it to anyone who asks, it was a fucking brilliant piece of storytelling and while it was gut-wrenching (and dude, I suspect it gutted Russell to write it) it leaves the door so wide open in terms of future stories. It really does.

I haven't watched T:CoE, but I tend to hate character deaths in TV shows in general; they're too often used by the writer as a cheap and easy way to manipulate the feelings of the viewers. I sympathize with the people who are angered over a character's death, if not their way of expressing it.

Same crap that goes on in the book reading community. It's insane, the entitlement.

I loved Neil Gaiman's response to the whole George R.R. Martin thing ("The writer is not your bitch.")

I tend to hate character deaths in TV shows in general; they're too often used by the writer as a cheap and easy way to manipulate the feelings of the viewers.

Well, if and when you get around to watching it Tom, I'll be interested to see what you think. To me, it was done in such a way that it wasn't cheap or manipulative. It really did put a lot of steps into motion for the end of the story.