Same crap that goes on in the book reading community. It's insane, the entitlement.

I loved Neil Gaiman's response to the whole George R.R. Martin thing ("The writer is not your bitch.")

I tend to hate character deaths in TV shows in general; they're too often used by the writer as a cheap and easy way to manipulate the feelings of the viewers.

Well, if and when you get around to watching it Tom, I'll be interested to see what you think. To me, it was done in such a way that it wasn't cheap or manipulative. It really did put a lot of steps into motion for the end of the story.

What bothers me most about Ianto was (1) the sense that they were killing off everyone, and (b) Jack lost Ianto, and then the very next day had to sacrifice his own grandson -- it all just seemed a little too much.

I think that was the point. If Ianto had survived or he still had a good relationship with his daughter, he had a reason to stay. Gwen might have been his best friend, but she wasn't enough of a reason to stay, he said so himself. He needed to get away, to a place where he could ignore his daughter's anger, his guilt, and his grief. They needed Jack to leave and the only way that would be done was to give him NOTHING to live for.

They needed Jack to leave and the only way that would be done was to give him NOTHING to live for.

I think too, with Ianto gone, it made Jack that much more dangerous and that much more capable of making that impossible, hard decision to sacrifice his grandson.

I think too, with Ianto gone, it made Jack that much more dangerous and that much more capable of making that impossible, hard decision to sacrifice his grandson.

absolutely. I think that it means something that his initial reaction was "no" when creepy guy said "but, you have a transmitter"

it's the unfuckingbelievably over-the-topness of the reaction and threats and OMG THE ENTITLEMENT.

OK, I see that kind of batshit.

And I can see that losing Ianto may have made it easier for Jack to sacrifice Stephen. I'm just not sure why the writers needed Jack to leave. Unless Torchwood is done, which it seems like after killing off three of the five team members in half a dozen episodes.

And yet, it doesn't feel like the story has all been told.

Unless Torchwood is done, which it seems like after killing off three of the five team members in half a dozen episodes.

I thought that when it was written/shot, they weren't sure if it would be renewed, so they wrote it as a series finale.

I've heard the same. But they seem to have painted themselves into a corner.

Or is it now official that there will or won't be a next season?

I will add that COE was awesome. The writing was good, and but there was not one person without amazing acting skills. If there is a new season, don't think it would be that hard to bring the series back, though it would be a very different series. Some emergency brings Jack back. (He will come back if he hears about earth being in danger and knows he can stop it.) New team: Gwen, maybe Rhys dragged along relunctantly, Lois, and maybe casual-murderer girl who allied herself with the team at the end after trying to to kill them through most of the series. (Incidentally is she the same one who recruited Jack to Torchwood in the flashbacks? That would make her either non-human, or human with extra added features.)

I think Jack's daughter would be too over the top. Having her on the team would go beyond extra angst to pure fourth rate melodrama.

What a couple of us were doubting (on very slim evidence) was that Jack was Ianto's first male lover.