I don't see killing Ianto as homophobic. But I don't compare it to Tara

I only compared it to Tara in terms of the utter wanktastic batshittery that's come from the outraged (OUTRAGED, I SAY!) fans.

Oh. OK. I guess it's that I thought that a non-batshit (wrong, but non-batshit) argument could be made re Tara.

What bothers me most about Ianto was (1) the sense that they were killing off everyone, and (b) Jack lost Ianto, and then the very next day had to sacrifice his own grandson -- it all just seemed a little too much.

I'm not outraged or taking the plot development as a slap in the face to the gay community. But on the other hand, in the last year or so RTD has managed to pretty thoroughly carve away the characters and relationships that interested me.

I guess it's that I thought that a non-batshit (wrong, but non-batshit) argument could be made re Tara.

It's not the content of "You killed Ianto! [or Tara]" that I find batshit -- it's the unfuckingbelievably over-the-topness of the reaction and threats and OMG THE ENTITLEMENT. Like whatever batshit group arose after Tara's death -- kittens, or something? Baaaaaaaatshit. Or the person (people?) who started BringWashBack.com (or whatever it was) before Serenity even opened.

It sucks when beloved characters get axed (Doyle, we hardly knew ye). But making death threats and internet campaigns for the character to be returned because they, the fans, "own" the character (and yes, this was a return-Ianto argument -- the TW characters don't belong to Davies; they "belong" to the fans because the show exists in a wider pop-cultural context, and since the characters belong to the fans, RETURN IANTO NOW) is baaaaaaaaatshit crazy.

But making death threats and internet campaigns for the character to be returned because they, the fans, "own" the character (and yes, this was a return-Ianto argument -- the TW characters don't belong to Davies; they "belong" to the fans because the show exists in a wider pop-cultural context, and since the characters belong to the fans, RETURN IANTO NOW).

Same crap that goes on in the book reading community. It's insane, the entitlement. I said it before, I'll keep saying it to anyone who asks, it was a fucking brilliant piece of storytelling and while it was gut-wrenching (and dude, I suspect it gutted Russell to write it) it leaves the door so wide open in terms of future stories. It really does.

I haven't watched T:CoE, but I tend to hate character deaths in TV shows in general; they're too often used by the writer as a cheap and easy way to manipulate the feelings of the viewers. I sympathize with the people who are angered over a character's death, if not their way of expressing it.

Same crap that goes on in the book reading community. It's insane, the entitlement.

I loved Neil Gaiman's response to the whole George R.R. Martin thing ("The writer is not your bitch.")

I tend to hate character deaths in TV shows in general; they're too often used by the writer as a cheap and easy way to manipulate the feelings of the viewers.

Well, if and when you get around to watching it Tom, I'll be interested to see what you think. To me, it was done in such a way that it wasn't cheap or manipulative. It really did put a lot of steps into motion for the end of the story.

What bothers me most about Ianto was (1) the sense that they were killing off everyone, and (b) Jack lost Ianto, and then the very next day had to sacrifice his own grandson -- it all just seemed a little too much.

I think that was the point. If Ianto had survived or he still had a good relationship with his daughter, he had a reason to stay. Gwen might have been his best friend, but she wasn't enough of a reason to stay, he said so himself. He needed to get away, to a place where he could ignore his daughter's anger, his guilt, and his grief. They needed Jack to leave and the only way that would be done was to give him NOTHING to live for.

They needed Jack to leave and the only way that would be done was to give him NOTHING to live for.

I think too, with Ianto gone, it made Jack that much more dangerous and that much more capable of making that impossible, hard decision to sacrifice his grandson.