I've said this before, but I think that was the most depressing tv viewing experience of a fictional program (I think "Big Brother" might be the most depressing overall) I have ever had. I don't necessarily need sparkle bright and light in my tv viewing, but agony, pain, torment for no reason? Because characters are doing stupid shit? Because the writers decided, hey, let's fuck up previous characterization, shall we?
Come on out, River. The nice man wants to kidnap you.
Simon ,'Objects In Space'
Boxed Set, Vol. V: Just a Hint of Denial and a Dash of Retcon
A topic for the discussion of Doctor Who, Arrow, and The Flash. Beware possible invasions of iZombie, Sleepy Hollow, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi, superhero, or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect adult content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.
Marvel superheroes are discussed over at the MCU thread.
Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.
Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.
This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.
le nubian - May 28, 2011 5:17:31 am PDT #17239 of 30001
"And to be clear, I am the hell. And the high water."
§ ita § - May 28, 2011 5:19:26 am PDT #17240 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
How did it fuck up previous characterisation? It was bleak, and they're the writers, they could have found a less bleak way to do it, but I don't think they went outside what was established for Jack to get there.
Liese S. - May 28, 2011 6:09:49 am PDT #17241 of 30001
"Faded like the lilac, he thought."
I don't think it was out of character necessarily. I think it was a deeply stupid character decision, but Jack has made deeply stupid decisions before. But it was a brutal loss and a brutal way to lose him.
Dana - May 28, 2011 6:32:09 am PDT #17242 of 30001
I haven't trusted science since I saw the film "Flubber."
I'm with you on the first part of that, LeN. I finished the last part of the mini and literally said "I wish I hadn't seen that." It wasn't even Ianto -- it was the bit with Jack's grandson.
Frankenbuddha - May 28, 2011 6:40:37 am PDT #17243 of 30001
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"
I think it was a deeply stupid character decision, but Jack has made deeply stupid decisions before.
And in some cases it's worked out in his favor, so it didn't surprise me that he'd try something like that. This time it didn't work though. Painfully so. Which is why I'll be curious with how Jack is acting when he comes back from wherever he's been.
le nubian - May 28, 2011 6:47:55 am PDT #17244 of 30001
"And to be clear, I am the hell. And the high water."
ita,
two things: a) the whole circumstance regarding how Ianto was killed was really stupid and if he encountered these beings before, I think he should know WTF he was dealing with.
b) the grandson thing. that was not the only option. good grief.
Unless we are supposed to get that Jack as a character doesn't grow or learn - in which case I retract the characterization complaint and still go with stupid.
§ ita § - May 28, 2011 6:51:57 am PDT #17245 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
the grandson thing. that was not the only option. good grief.
Within the timeframe, what were the other options?
I lay blame on Ianto being where he was to die on Ianto, not Jack, so I don't hold that against him. And I thought it was that the writers were trying to narrow the list of choices down available to Jack down to 1 very unpleasant one--sacrifice your grandson or the world. It wasn't like the text offered up other alternatives he wilfully avoided.
le nubian - May 28, 2011 6:59:33 am PDT #17246 of 30001
"And to be clear, I am the hell. And the high water."
right, but I'm on record saying I didn't think the writers needed to create this box in which those were the only 2 options. it did not make sense. yes, I get this was moral retribution from earlier decisions, but I didn't agree with this false parallelism in the first place.
§ ita § - May 28, 2011 7:04:09 am PDT #17247 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I didn't think the writers needed to create this box in which those were the only 2 options
But do you think they did? I mean, he can't have made the wrong choice if canon says there were only two and everyone dies the other way. It becomes an issue of bad storytelling, not OOC behaviour.
le nubian - May 28, 2011 7:35:40 am PDT #17248 of 30001
"And to be clear, I am the hell. And the high water."
yes, I think it is bad storytelling AND bad behavior (esp. with regard to Ianto's death; not speaking to his daughter first was beyond the pale as well).
I got the impression that it was more important (from a writing standpoint) to have Jack suffer as completely as possible than to have a narrative that is dark, but compelling.