I get your point, Shir.

Speaking only for myself, I have no high expectations from DW when it comes to feminism, although they do get a lot of points from me for River Song.

I didn't like this one at all.

Now, I understand that little will tickle me as much as 10 Teaching English Literature to Lauren Cooper. Still, the lascivious jokes just fell flat to me, and seemed like the sole reason for the entire set up.

An up-skirt joke, Moffat? Really? You are so much more clever than that.

Adorable? I found it sexist.

Really? The jokes were a bit obvious (but then it was only a few minutes long), but I didn't think it was sexist. And I usually find rather a lot sexist...

I also thought it was adorable.

Really? The jokes were a bit obvious (but then it was only a few minutes long), but I didn't think it was sexist. And I usually find rather a lot sexist...

I think some of the sexist sting was taken out of it for me because Rory IS her husband and they are newlyweds, and the Doctor doesn't actually care about Amy's legs in and of themselves.

ETA: Anybody else now want to see any incarnation of the Doctor going "Guh" over Queen Elizabeth I's ankles?

I think some of the sexist sting was taken out of it for me because Rory IS her husband and they are newlyweds, and the Doctor doesn't actually care about Amy's legs in and of themselves.

Quite. And you can't tell me Amy wouldn't have looked up Rory's Roman costume at some point.

Plus I thought the "Pond, put some trousers on" tone was rather consistent with the way the Doctor usually reacts to Amy's distractions of various kinds.

And it was for Comic Relief, after all. Nothing for that is meant to be too serious.

Yeah. Really. Because just the fact that all of this special was based on jokes about Amy's body and/or her sexuality tells me a thing or two about the writing abilities of Moffat.

They haven't reduced her to a prop (almost), which is something, I guess. It's kind of what Sarkeesian is saying here: [link] and while I fairly believe that some of DW fans can be "inside the joke" (which is fair and common and OK among friends), the show just can't do it. They have responsibility, as a cult TV show. And when they fail at it, we get comments (on YouTube, where I watched it) such as Amy is such a slut :) . Not to mention the non-existent line between the "she has a short skirt" and "she was asking for it"/"it's her fault".

I don't have a lot of feminist expectations from DW as well, but they really crossed the line there. Because for some reason, they don't glorify Amy as a character as they do with the damn uber hero worshiping that's the Doctor. And I give them that, most times. But if all of the characters in your show are just used in various ways to shine on the overly-worshiped as is main character without being full characters in themselves (Amy is usually is. But not in this special), and you got nothing left but sexist jokes to do it with, I'd say you have a problem as a writer, and not just with me as a fan.

Phew. It felt good to write all this down now.

Shir, I see your points. But this wasn't 'the show'. It was Comic Relief. If you don't live here, you won't understand the context. Dozens of shows do very short specials, which are basically parodies of themselves. They are never serious, because the whole night is based around comedy. Moffat was parodying himself. I thought he was a good sport to do that, as were the actors. This is not canon and would never be thought of as such. Have you seen the one with Rowan Atkinson? Or 2007's (I think) where Peter Davison appears and chats to Tennant about whose doctor he is, and it's clearly just Moffat being a fanboy?

I do think you have to understand the context, as much as it might be problematic in some ways. I see that focusing on Amy's skirt is a bit silly and could be seen as sexist. But they've sort of done it throughout, and they've objectified Rory just as much. They really really have.

As for 'it's all her fault', I can sort of see where you're coming from there. But I think Rory is blamed just as much for being easily distracted. I also don't see your problem with the idolisation of the Doctor. That's the entire point of the series. The journeys of the assistant are based around that. Martha leaving vs Rose wanting to change her life to fit him. Donna having to have her memory wiped. And they're not all in love with him, either, and I like that. The companions are much more self-aware and is control than they used to be, Amy included. None of them are there just to scream anymore. *That* I objected to.

I guess I worry when feminism says that any fun around women's sexuality is dangerous. I see its point there, but I can't agree. I think women have agency even while structure is a problem, and that sexuality - as subjects or objects - isn't necessarily objectification.

If you don't live here, you won't understand the context

That I can understand. I'll be more humble in my critique (really, no irony). And yet, there are few things that still don't justify it, IMHO.

But this wasn't 'the show'. It was Comic Relief... which are basically parodies of themselves

Have you seen the one with Rowan Atkinson?

Yep.

I didn't see a parody of The Doctor there, as it was with Atkinson. I saw a parody of Amy, mostly, and Amy's skirt, and some parody of Rory. But anyway, when I wrote "The Show", I meant DW franchise in general. Comic Relief included. The fact that it's a parody doesn't make it less sexist, and the fact that almost all of this parody was based on Amy's skirt jokes doesn't make it OK. It would have been OK if we lived in a better, more just and feminist world. I know some of the DW fans answer to this, but just take a look on the comments showing why people loved this sketch, and you might see my point. People don't laugh at the parody, because most of them can't see the parody. For them, it's real (and I'd take a chance that most of the people who are watching it on YouTube aren't from the UK, where they could have watched it on TV).

Which is kind of what I mean by "the show's responsibility". It's the show's (and Comic Relief's) responsibility to remember we are not in this world just yet. Because many will get the joke wrong.

I also don't see your problem with the idolisation of the Doctor. That's the entire point of the series

Sorry, was the entire point of Buffy the idolisation of Buffy? And yes, I know that the Doctor isn't human. But every characteristic of him, bad or good, is shown is such banal "OMG, he's teh awesome!!!1" way. Also fits to this sketch/parody.

Trust me, I hate being pushed to this radical position. I fully agree that sexuality shouldn't necessarily mean objectification (and God knows I fully embrace sexy dresses), but the thing is that its based on the presumption that you, as a viewer, need to know and understand a thing or two about feminism to get to this point and to see the parody. Because it comes with a responsibility on how not to objectify while sexualizing objects/subjects. Because at this episode, the role of Amy's skirt was as big as Amy's, if not bigger.

And you know what? Let's say it isn't sexist. It's still very lame (given it's Moffat), even if everyone get the joke.

But I wouldn't go on a battle on this issue. There are far more burning issues in feminism and popular culture to address. But this sketch is using too much goodwill to justify its existence. And mostly because it's Moffat, I'd expect more. Amy was an amazing companion. River Song? Kick ass character. Comic Relief? Jokes on Amy's skirt. Do you see my problem with it?

Edited for petty things such as grammar and clarity. Petty, I know.

ION, I just woke up from a dream in which I was watching Earth 2 on television. It was some kind of revival/re-editing of the original. The same actors in the roles, same story line, but somehow the angles of the camera work were different. It was shot as though one of the characters was holding the camera. And the Grendlers looked different.