(And if you think by "fiery sword" I mean PORN, you are SO right.)

::as usual, loves Erin like burning::

I can't see Dean being in hell. Not anymore. I don't think even Kripke would sustain that kind of misdirect over four episodes. And I don't think Castiel has an evil agenda. Again, I think Kripke might be willing to paint him in shades of gray(ish), but I don't believe he's going to pull a Dallas-style surprise on us and have Castiel turn out to be Lucifer, or a demon, or whatever.

Not that Kripke doesn't have an imagintion, but I don't see it happening that way.

Also would like some shirtless Castiel, please. Any time. I'll wait.

I don't think Dean is still in hell. I do entertain the notion that his get-out-of-jail-free card is attached to some hidden strings.

It seems, in Judeo-Christian theology, that God and Lucifer work in a very rules-based system. If the Devil gets a soul, that soul is HIS and God does not willy-nilly decide to yank a soul that the devil won out of hell. IIRC, the only way souls already in hell were ever able to get out was when Jesus Messiahed-up and got all the good pagans outta there when he was riding the Resurrection coma-wave. And that took three days (and I always thought it was kinda a massive woobie retcon on the part of the NT writers, who couldn't stand the thought of their philosopher-heroes burning.)

So....why Dean W.? I mean, good guy, fights against evil. BUT in the larger picture, he really is NOT extraordinarily good. His appeal is based on being ordinarily, conflicted good.

So Kripke's either got (a) something really good to justify this (b) an ass-pull or (c) this is not your beautiful string-free cake.

Oh,I don't necessarily think it's strong-free. I'm just, first, kind of taking at face value that the "work" God has for Dean mostly involves keeping a leash on Sam, and giving Castiel and his crew the inside track into what Sam's up to. Because if anyone is going to do that, it's going to be Dean.

That said, it's already a massive retcon for me that Castiel can pull Dean out of hell, restore his (yummy) body, send him back in time, etc., but can't simply follow Sam around and figure out what he's doing (if not what Azazel's plan was, which, honestly, he *could* have mostly figured out, since he witnessed everything Dean did in the Wayback Machine to the '70s).

And telling Dean he has to do this *work* while also admitting that if he can't, Castiel et al will, sort of indicates (to me) that maybe Dean has some kind of higher purpose in the scheme. But that's maybe (probably?) just wishful supposing on my part.

Also, the string could be as simple as having to kill Sam. Which is ... pretty stringy, since the last time Sam died, Dean couldn't bear it.

Yeah, that's the thing that dings the dong for me: why can't Castiel just saunter up to Sammy and lay down the law? The fact that he's using Dean as a go-betweem strikes me as hinky. BECAUSE HE'S SKETCHY. Hot, but he's up to something.

What that something is...dunno yet.

I can see Sam and Dead going down the Cain and Abel path or the yellow-crayon speech path here, possibly. Other than that, I don't know.

(My, having internet again is fun! I haven't line-read a show in a long time! )

why can't Castiel just saunter up to Sammy and lay down the law?

I wonder if the taint of demon blood in Sam would make Castiel's presence harmful (or possibly lethal) to him. Maybe Dean is the only chance for Sam to be saved and for Azazel's game to be thrwarted. If the angels stepped in, then maybe death would be the only option.

Given how the show has recently emphasized the fact that possession victims can be saved under the right circumstances, I would hope that the side of good would prefer an "Everybody lives!" sort of victory to a scorched earth one.

Anne, I like that theory.

(I mean, I still have my theory that the angels have as much red tape to deal with in dealings with humans as the demons, and thus the raising of Dean AND the time travel. More on that later. Have to see why my child is slamming doors now.)

I wonder if the taint of demon blood in Sam would make Castiel's presence harmful (or possibly lethal) to him

Good point. Oooh, I also wonder, IF Castiel is not necessarily on the up-and-up, if Sam could tell and/or exorcise him?

Or even if he is? I mean, Castiel IS a possessing spirit? He's filling a container -- Sam empties containers. Does it matter if it's full of milk or moonshine?

Given how the show has recently emphasized the fact that possession victims can be saved under the right circumstances, I would hope that the side of good would prefer an "Everybody lives!" sort of victory to a scorched earth one.

Now that made me sniffly. You can tell we watch the same shows.

Good point. Oooh, I also wonder, IF Castiel is not necessarily on the up-and-up, if Sam could tell and/or exorcise him?

Or even if he is? I mean, Castiel IS a possessing spirit? He's filling a container -- Sam empties containers. Does it matter if it's full of milk or moonshine?

Didn't think about that. Maybe Castiel doesn't talk to Sammy because Sammy is powerful enough to boot his ass out of the vessel. I'm sure at this point, Sammy wouldn't know that, but if Castiel pushed him, he might find that out. It's a game of poker with agendas and maybe the angels (and God) don't want to show their hand to Sam yet.

I mean, Castiel IS a possessing spirit? He's filling a container -- Sam empties containers. Does it matter if it's full of milk or moonshine?

Good point. We know that some demons (at least) are fallen humans. I'm assuming that others might be fallen angels (e.g. ones on a par with Azazel and Lilith)

That's one container Sam really shouldn't empty. We know that Castiel out of his container is bad for humans (and other containers).

Plus... we all seem to like Castiel's current container.