....I'm not sure what my point really is here

Context definitely matters!

I really don’t want to speak for Glamcookie or sj, but I also don’t want to make them do the work we should do. It always seems that when these discussions happen my community doesn’t actually do anything. It seems like we may need an explicit statement of more than “be polite” and some guidance for how we respond both as people responding in thread and as people who might step in the Guac. I looked at the Buffering the Vampire Slayer podcast, because they had a good response, but I think it is too detailed for us as we are not content creators, but maybe something like JenP said, but written in a different tense?

So, to answer Shir's question: I want to be part of a community where it is explicit that if something needs to be called out, and it is, it's the responsibility of the called out party to look past any shock at being called out and really look at why. That's asking a lot, but it's not asking too much. It's the bare minimum we can all do - put aside our possibly hurt feelings to look at why something you've said is personally and minority groupfully (forgive the clunkiness) harmful. I want to know when I do that. I don't want to go around blithely, unintentionally saying something that I think is totally innocent that is, in fact, harmful to a person or perpetuating a harmful attitude even if no one from said group is present. And I want to recognize it when other people do it (not just here, but in the wider world). I also don't want to try to smooth it over on someone else's (or the community's) behalf -- that's dismissive and, really, takes away their opportunity to take responsibility.

With guidance from Glamcookie on how to apologize, anonomyzed.

KB/Laura says something without realizing it's problematic. sj tells them it's problematic and why. KB/Laura say, "Oh shit. I'm sorry. I see what you're saying and appreciate you letting me know." Or "Oh shit, really? I had no idea. I'm sorry. I'm not sure I understand and would like to so that I don't mess up next time. Could we talk about it here/offline or could you send me a link to an explanation? Thank you so much for speaking up and for helping me understand."

With the video

in terms of how to apologize, I'd like to share this video again because it's so wonderfully informative without shaming and Franchesca Ramsey even provides her own example of being called out and how she went from defensiveness to a place of growth. I refer to it all the time - it's fab. [link]

I think we also have to accept the fact that while we have a deep desire for these things to resolve neatly sometimes they won't, no matter what systems we try to put in place. There is always the possibility that someone won't apologize, or want to take the correction. I've learned in other places that I need to be okay with this, no matter if the person is a favorite of mine, or someone I'd never expect it of. Choosing to hold these ideals strongly means we need accept the possible outcomes.

Choosing to hold these ideals strongly means we need accept the possible outcomes.

Really good point, ND. Hard truth, but truth nonetheless.

Meanwhile, Katie and Laura do & did, feel attacked and have left. IMHO that is not collateral damage that I am okay with.

It brought up a lot of personal feeling for me, nothing to do with -ablism or any of the -isms, but about people drawing up sides within Buffistas then shunning someone. This discussion angers me in the glib dismissal of two valuable beloved members of the community leaving!

Either B dot org lives up to its desired goal of being a safe space and a community or it doesn't and everyone talking about making it safe to talk about -isms on the one hand is shunning Katie and Laura on the other, which is fucked up. I can't even believe the question was asked whether to revoke Laura's stompy status. Are you kidding me?? NO. How many years has she volunteered her time, been a kind and loving den mother here? How can you even ask that? Or - to put it declaratively, she has been a loving kind person on this board for decades! Decades! It counts a LOT, to me. And I adore Katie, and if she leaves forever, the board loses for it.

Rewriting to eliminate questions. I feel like reaching out to Katie and Laura, and will, just to say that I hope they give themselves a cooling off period, then come back. I would hope that any here who are drawing up scripts for them actually reaches out in person to talk to them about it, because they're GONE and won't see one effing thing here unless you do reach out. This community is already quite small. Let's not cause more attrition, please.

Java I take what you are saying in account and very seriously. The downside is that sj and glamcookie are also long term valuable members of this community. Where is the line drawn? I know that we want a solution where everyone comes out feeling good about things, but that is rarely possible. This is where the very hard choices about choosing where you stand comes into play. Almost always there will be outcomes where not everyone is satisfied.

I'm sick about the fact that Laura and Katie are not here, but I'm also sick about the fact that sj doesn't feel this is a safe space.

This discussion angers me in the glib dismissal of two valuable beloved members of the community leaving!

I don't see glib dismissal. I've seen quite a lot of sadness and dismay.

We're not shunning Katie and Laura. Sometimes when someone is called out on something they aren't in a place to process it in that moment. My hope is that they are able to take time for processing and some introspection and can eventually see what people were actually trying to express to them. It is on them, however, to do that work, and none of us can make that happen.

A lot of people (including myself) would like to think that 20+ years into a relationship this could be more of a conversation and less of a “calling out.”

SJ should absolutely feel safe in expressing her concern and hurt (as she did) and she should have the support of the people around her (as she did).

After that point, 20+ years into relationships with people whom are indeed cherished and respected and known well, maybe it’s time for difficult private conversations and not public piling on.

I think the instance in question was more conversation than call out. My bad on that phrasing.

Call out is the term that has been being used for a while now and it’s accurate.

One of the things that makes it less of a conversation is the piling on phenomenon - which has caused us problems before. Even if everyone is being measured and thoughtful in their comments, after ten or twenty of them the aggregate is pretty aggressive.