This discussion angers me in the glib dismissal of two valuable beloved members of the community leaving!

I don't see glib dismissal. I've seen quite a lot of sadness and dismay.

We're not shunning Katie and Laura. Sometimes when someone is called out on something they aren't in a place to process it in that moment. My hope is that they are able to take time for processing and some introspection and can eventually see what people were actually trying to express to them. It is on them, however, to do that work, and none of us can make that happen.

A lot of people (including myself) would like to think that 20+ years into a relationship this could be more of a conversation and less of a “calling out.”

SJ should absolutely feel safe in expressing her concern and hurt (as she did) and she should have the support of the people around her (as she did).

After that point, 20+ years into relationships with people whom are indeed cherished and respected and known well, maybe it’s time for difficult private conversations and not public piling on.

I think the instance in question was more conversation than call out. My bad on that phrasing.

Call out is the term that has been being used for a while now and it’s accurate.

One of the things that makes it less of a conversation is the piling on phenomenon - which has caused us problems before. Even if everyone is being measured and thoughtful in their comments, after ten or twenty of them the aggregate is pretty aggressive.

I would take issue with characterizing this as a pile on. The conversation came out of the incident, but the conversation is much more than the incident. I think folks don't get that we deal with micro (and macro) aggressions daily. It's frustrating that society at large doesn't see that and when we are in a space we feel like maybe we can call it out and have a conversation, this is what happens. Why do we prioritize hurt feelings over lived experiences? I am absolutely boggled that this is better than taking in sj's words and hurt, considering that you've misstepped and apologizing. We have to deal with slurs and meanness and unintentional words constantly. The privilege is too much.

I mean, just the latest in a long line, since the Proud Boys bullshit on Saturday, I've had to watch Twitter erupt in homophobia from "progressives" and "liberals" over that pic/video of their bare butts with some antifa bullshit written on them. Talking about them enjoying being butt buddies and the like. Yes, please compare us to white supremacists and intimate that these garbage men are gay (so funny, right?). Guarantee you that most of them consider themselves allies to the LGBTQIA+ community. This? Is our daily experience.

I really don't feel it was a pile on either. There was a lot of back and forth going on and a lot of very kind people politely asking Laura and KB to reconsider their responses to the situation. There wasn't the type of anger or blame being tossed around as I have seen with actual pile ons on the board.

Laura and Katie were not driven away with pitchforks and torches. They both flounced.

Yes. Shunning is a serious mid characterization of what I’ve seen. Katie was called out - or in - and Laura’s comments were identified right from the start as a question of unfortunate timing as much as anything. We know and love them and many of us have expressed our dismay at the choices they’ve both made, first to respond and then to leave in this manner.

But I don’t know how you fix that. Several people have gone to great lengths to couch the discussion in terms of good faith, history, and kindness. But unless you accept that something you did hurt someone (and sj is telling you it did! glam and others are telling you it did!) then I don’t know what anyone else can do to fix it. When you hurt someone you apologize and you try to understand how to not do that. That’s all. That has to be the standard.

I guess my question is, is there a consensus that we want to have a statement in favor of inclusion or any more guidance than "be polite" or anyone willing to take up that to vote OR do with think that we actually followed our guidance which is 1. Bring it up in thread 2. If it is not brought up the thread bring it to bureacracy

I think that the situation was actually handled well as a board after a few missteps, some of which I made, but I understand how it can seem hurtful to all parties. Heck, I am a little hurt by java cat's characterization of what I said as "making scripts for them". My intention was to provide a future solution for if this happens again, and maybe make it easier, but my impact was not that and I am sorry for that.

To me, that is a productive conversation to have now, and not more processing. I wanted to make sure we didn't leave people hanging and feeling uncomfortable without a resolution.