I think we also have to accept the fact that while we have a deep desire for these things to resolve neatly sometimes they won't, no matter what systems we try to put in place. There is always the possibility that someone won't apologize, or want to take the correction. I've learned in other places that I need to be okay with this, no matter if the person is a favorite of mine, or someone I'd never expect it of. Choosing to hold these ideals strongly means we need accept the possible outcomes.

Choosing to hold these ideals strongly means we need accept the possible outcomes.

Really good point, ND. Hard truth, but truth nonetheless.

Meanwhile, Katie and Laura do & did, feel attacked and have left. IMHO that is not collateral damage that I am okay with.

It brought up a lot of personal feeling for me, nothing to do with -ablism or any of the -isms, but about people drawing up sides within Buffistas then shunning someone. This discussion angers me in the glib dismissal of two valuable beloved members of the community leaving!

Either B dot org lives up to its desired goal of being a safe space and a community or it doesn't and everyone talking about making it safe to talk about -isms on the one hand is shunning Katie and Laura on the other, which is fucked up. I can't even believe the question was asked whether to revoke Laura's stompy status. Are you kidding me?? NO. How many years has she volunteered her time, been a kind and loving den mother here? How can you even ask that? Or - to put it declaratively, she has been a loving kind person on this board for decades! Decades! It counts a LOT, to me. And I adore Katie, and if she leaves forever, the board loses for it.

Rewriting to eliminate questions. I feel like reaching out to Katie and Laura, and will, just to say that I hope they give themselves a cooling off period, then come back. I would hope that any here who are drawing up scripts for them actually reaches out in person to talk to them about it, because they're GONE and won't see one effing thing here unless you do reach out. This community is already quite small. Let's not cause more attrition, please.

Java I take what you are saying in account and very seriously. The downside is that sj and glamcookie are also long term valuable members of this community. Where is the line drawn? I know that we want a solution where everyone comes out feeling good about things, but that is rarely possible. This is where the very hard choices about choosing where you stand comes into play. Almost always there will be outcomes where not everyone is satisfied.

I'm sick about the fact that Laura and Katie are not here, but I'm also sick about the fact that sj doesn't feel this is a safe space.

This discussion angers me in the glib dismissal of two valuable beloved members of the community leaving!

I don't see glib dismissal. I've seen quite a lot of sadness and dismay.

We're not shunning Katie and Laura. Sometimes when someone is called out on something they aren't in a place to process it in that moment. My hope is that they are able to take time for processing and some introspection and can eventually see what people were actually trying to express to them. It is on them, however, to do that work, and none of us can make that happen.

A lot of people (including myself) would like to think that 20+ years into a relationship this could be more of a conversation and less of a “calling out.”

SJ should absolutely feel safe in expressing her concern and hurt (as she did) and she should have the support of the people around her (as she did).

After that point, 20+ years into relationships with people whom are indeed cherished and respected and known well, maybe it’s time for difficult private conversations and not public piling on.

I think the instance in question was more conversation than call out. My bad on that phrasing.

Call out is the term that has been being used for a while now and it’s accurate.

One of the things that makes it less of a conversation is the piling on phenomenon - which has caused us problems before. Even if everyone is being measured and thoughtful in their comments, after ten or twenty of them the aggregate is pretty aggressive.

I would take issue with characterizing this as a pile on. The conversation came out of the incident, but the conversation is much more than the incident. I think folks don't get that we deal with micro (and macro) aggressions daily. It's frustrating that society at large doesn't see that and when we are in a space we feel like maybe we can call it out and have a conversation, this is what happens. Why do we prioritize hurt feelings over lived experiences? I am absolutely boggled that this is better than taking in sj's words and hurt, considering that you've misstepped and apologizing. We have to deal with slurs and meanness and unintentional words constantly. The privilege is too much.

I mean, just the latest in a long line, since the Proud Boys bullshit on Saturday, I've had to watch Twitter erupt in homophobia from "progressives" and "liberals" over that pic/video of their bare butts with some antifa bullshit written on them. Talking about them enjoying being butt buddies and the like. Yes, please compare us to white supremacists and intimate that these garbage men are gay (so funny, right?). Guarantee you that most of them consider themselves allies to the LGBTQIA+ community. This? Is our daily experience.