Also, Shir, the new thread is currently off the table as I retracted my proposal because the conversation was way too much for me to handle mentally and emotionally.

And if our own friends and allies don't do the work and at least listen when we speak up, it leads to sadness and rage. At least it does for me, not wanting to speak for sj. It's easy to have logical, calm discussions when you're not a part of the group being discussed.

Yes, you speak for me on this. I'm trying really hard to just let it go, but...

Yes, you speak for me on this. I'm trying really hard to just let it go, but...

We can't let it go - that's the problem here. We can "let it go" in terms of the call out and discussion, but it will fester in us and we will not forget how these convos go because they have consequences for us. These convos let us know who is safe and who is not, and that is so painful when it's our friends.

Technical: I updated and edited my post above [link] and responded to some sentences there - got a phone call in the middle of editing, so just wanted to make sure you'll see the edits.

(And now I'm going to make food or else there will be no dinner, but I'll return later).

Yes, you speak for me on this. I'm trying really hard to just let it go, but...

But you shouldn't have to just let it go. Is continuing to talk about this too hard on you, though? I'll be honest, my goal is to get you to feel comfortable and good about staying. And Glam. Any anyone else who is reading along and feeling it. I was really happy to see you posting in Natter.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me." Or, at the very least, two genuine apologies, even if no thanks. I think everyone I've seen post agree that Cindy, Debet, Dana, Glam et al. were trying to drive them to that, but it didn't work. I think it is a surprise to the community at large that we didn't do that.

So, to answer Shir's question: I want to be part of a community where it is explicit that if something needs to be called out, and it is, it's the responsibility of the called out party to look past any shock at being called out and really look at why. That's asking a lot, but it's not asking too much. It's the bare minimum we can all do - put aside our possibly hurt feelings to look at why something you've said is personally and minority groupfully (forgive the clunkiness) harmful. I want to know when I do that. I don't want to go around blithely, unintentionally saying something that I think is totally innocent that is, in fact, harmful to a person or perpetuating a harmful attitude even if no one from said group is present. And I want to recognize it when other people do it (not just here, but in the wider world). I also don't want to try to smooth it over on someone else's (or the community's) behalf -- that's dismissive and, really, takes away their opportunity to take responsibility.

Again, from my past: It's more important to me to avoid potential hurt than to hold on to defend my using something like, say, the word gypped, as innocent. Was it? Yes. Did I know where it came from? No. Do I now? Yes, and thank you to whatever article or whatever pointed that out to me. Do I still use it? Nope. Do I point it out if ever I hear it? Yes. Have I ever run into someone of Roma descent? I don't think so, but it doesn't actually matter.

Should it be sj's or Glam's responsibility to bring someone's attention to something like that? No, but do they have a choice? I mean, yes, of course, but stuffing it down and ignoring it to "get along" isn't a good option, and they shouldn't have to do that (anymore and shouldn't have had to ever) in the world. And I appreciate the hell out of it that they do/did point thing out and are still here talking even though it's painful. I really do. And the links you've shared have been informative, Glam, thank you. It's 100% on me to educate myself on a LOT of things to do my part to drive toward equity all around. But, I know that sometimes I just don't know what I don't know yet; it is a privilege to have people who care enough about me to point it out. I'm sorry it's necessary, though.

Is continuing to talk about this too hard on you, though?

Kind of. I mean it's an important conversation, and I want to contribute to it. However, I also have a bunch of other stuff going on right now, and I just want my safe space to feel safe again.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me." Or, at the very least, two genuine apologies, even if no thanks. I think everyone I've seen post agree that Cindy, Debet, Dana, Glam et al. were trying to drive them to that, but it didn't work. I think it is a surprise to the community at large that we didn't do that.

And, yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Also, I think most of the posters here know I'm not a confrontational person. It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

I'm sorry about the sequelae, but I am glad you spoke up. I think we needed to clarify what the expectations were around mistakes, call outs, and responses thereunto. It's a hard conversation to have, even among people of good intentions such as this group.

It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

It did take a ton of courage. Thank you so much for trying to educate. And please feel free to participate or not as your mental state allows. I have had to step away several times as well during these discussions - it's really really hard.

It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

Echoing Calli and Glam. I'm glad you did, but I'm sorry it's been so hard on you.

And please feel free to participate or not as your mental state allows.

Yes, this very thing.

I had this discussion yesterday and the outcome was great.

FB friend:

You know’s surprised when an actor is gay?

No one who ever ever ever spent time in theater in high school.

Me:

Hmmmm, I know the intent is not negative here, but it's pinging me wrong. Making assumptions about folks' sexuality based on their interests, passions is... kinda icky.

FB friend:

Can you tell me more? I'm open to listening.

Me:

Said with love, when folks joke about groups they're not a part of, it can go wrong. Allies are great and sometimes feel like since they're allies, they can say this type of thing, but they don't know how this stuff affects minorities, you know?

FB friend:

Absolutely. And I’m grateful you’re calling me out here. And you’re right- I’ve felt so comfortable in queer spaces for so long I have trod on the toes that *arent mine*. Thanks for pointing it out.

She also left the post up (she didn't delete it) and added the following to it:

EDIT: I made some crummy stereotypes here and my humorous intent was actually harmful and super unhelpful. Leaving it cause even if you’re the most homespun ally you still fuck up. And I did that.

And I feel heard and supported and have zero negative associations with her following this exchange - in fact, it's strengthened my feelings toward her. This is how you ally.