It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

I'm sorry about the sequelae, but I am glad you spoke up. I think we needed to clarify what the expectations were around mistakes, call outs, and responses thereunto. It's a hard conversation to have, even among people of good intentions such as this group.

It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

It did take a ton of courage. Thank you so much for trying to educate. And please feel free to participate or not as your mental state allows. I have had to step away several times as well during these discussions - it's really really hard.

It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

Echoing Calli and Glam. I'm glad you did, but I'm sorry it's been so hard on you.

And please feel free to participate or not as your mental state allows.

Yes, this very thing.

I had this discussion yesterday and the outcome was great.

FB friend:

You know’s surprised when an actor is gay?

No one who ever ever ever spent time in theater in high school.

Me:

Hmmmm, I know the intent is not negative here, but it's pinging me wrong. Making assumptions about folks' sexuality based on their interests, passions is... kinda icky.

FB friend:

Can you tell me more? I'm open to listening.

Me:

Said with love, when folks joke about groups they're not a part of, it can go wrong. Allies are great and sometimes feel like since they're allies, they can say this type of thing, but they don't know how this stuff affects minorities, you know?

FB friend:

Absolutely. And I’m grateful you’re calling me out here. And you’re right- I’ve felt so comfortable in queer spaces for so long I have trod on the toes that *arent mine*. Thanks for pointing it out.

She also left the post up (she didn't delete it) and added the following to it:

EDIT: I made some crummy stereotypes here and my humorous intent was actually harmful and super unhelpful. Leaving it cause even if you’re the most homespun ally you still fuck up. And I did that.

And I feel heard and supported and have zero negative associations with her following this exchange - in fact, it's strengthened my feelings toward her. This is how you ally.

Said with love, when folks joke about groups they're not a part of, it can go wrong. Allies are great and sometimes feel like since they're allies, they can say this type of thing, but they don't know how this stuff affects minorities, you know?

I love that you said this so plainly. And we all already know that in a big picture way, but part of the problem of privilege (not self-entitlement, just plain privilege that shields people without their realizing they're shielded) is that you don't (automatically) know what you don't know.

Look at those responses:

Can you tell me more? I'm open to listening.

Absolutely. And I’m grateful you’re calling me out here. And you’re right- I’ve felt so comfortable in queer spaces for so long I have trod on the toes that *arent mine*. Thanks for pointing it out.

That's how to dismantle the ignorance-is-bliss aspect of (one's own) privilege. I want that to become automatic for me. The only way for it to become automatic is the choose to say it every time, until it becomes the natural reaction.

It's natural to feel defensive when you didn't mean any harm -- particularly among friends who have known you long enough that you feel they must know you didn't mean any harm. I think that's where listening and hearing each other often break down.

Defensiveness makes people unable to hear the, "I know you didn't mean any harm, but here's why it hurts anyhow," part of the discussion.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me." Or, at the very least, two genuine apologies, even if no thanks. I think everyone I've seen post agree that Cindy, Debet, Dana, Glam et al. were trying to drive them to that, but it didn't work. I think it is a surprise to the community at large that we didn't do that.

Yes, this.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me."

I agree with all of this. Acknowledge the hurt caused, ask how to make it better, and commit to changed behavior going forward.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me." Or, at the very least, two genuine apologies, even if no thanks. I think everyone I've seen post agree that Cindy, Debet, Dana, Glam et al. were trying to drive them to that, but it didn't work. I think it is a surprise to the community at large that we didn't do that.

I agree with all of this. Acknowledge the hurt caused, ask how to make it better, and commit to changed behavior going forward.

Thank you for summing this up. Since we are talking about making some assumptions about expected behavior explicit, I think it is helpful to make the consensus explicit as well.

And please feel free to participate or not as your mental state allows.

100% this. The same goes to you, Glamcookie, or anyone else who is too triggered by this discussion.

Agree agree agree about both parts of the consensus, and about none of the caller-outers having any obligation to keep engaging and keep educating even when it costs you. The degree to which you do should be entirely your own choice, and the one obligation is the one the community has to make this a safe place for you whatever your choice.

I have been reading and following all of this and have been quiet, intentionally. It's taken me a lot of years to learn that typically the last thing these conversations need is the input of a white male, that representation is taken care of. My job is to listen and learn.