I had this discussion yesterday and the outcome was great.

FB friend:

You know’s surprised when an actor is gay?

No one who ever ever ever spent time in theater in high school.

Me:

Hmmmm, I know the intent is not negative here, but it's pinging me wrong. Making assumptions about folks' sexuality based on their interests, passions is... kinda icky.

FB friend:

Can you tell me more? I'm open to listening.

Me:

Said with love, when folks joke about groups they're not a part of, it can go wrong. Allies are great and sometimes feel like since they're allies, they can say this type of thing, but they don't know how this stuff affects minorities, you know?

FB friend:

Absolutely. And I’m grateful you’re calling me out here. And you’re right- I’ve felt so comfortable in queer spaces for so long I have trod on the toes that *arent mine*. Thanks for pointing it out.

She also left the post up (she didn't delete it) and added the following to it:

EDIT: I made some crummy stereotypes here and my humorous intent was actually harmful and super unhelpful. Leaving it cause even if you’re the most homespun ally you still fuck up. And I did that.

And I feel heard and supported and have zero negative associations with her following this exchange - in fact, it's strengthened my feelings toward her. This is how you ally.

Said with love, when folks joke about groups they're not a part of, it can go wrong. Allies are great and sometimes feel like since they're allies, they can say this type of thing, but they don't know how this stuff affects minorities, you know?

I love that you said this so plainly. And we all already know that in a big picture way, but part of the problem of privilege (not self-entitlement, just plain privilege that shields people without their realizing they're shielded) is that you don't (automatically) know what you don't know.

Look at those responses:

Can you tell me more? I'm open to listening.

Absolutely. And I’m grateful you’re calling me out here. And you’re right- I’ve felt so comfortable in queer spaces for so long I have trod on the toes that *arent mine*. Thanks for pointing it out.

That's how to dismantle the ignorance-is-bliss aspect of (one's own) privilege. I want that to become automatic for me. The only way for it to become automatic is the choose to say it every time, until it becomes the natural reaction.

It's natural to feel defensive when you didn't mean any harm -- particularly among friends who have known you long enough that you feel they must know you didn't mean any harm. I think that's where listening and hearing each other often break down.

Defensiveness makes people unable to hear the, "I know you didn't mean any harm, but here's why it hurts anyhow," part of the discussion.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me." Or, at the very least, two genuine apologies, even if no thanks. I think everyone I've seen post agree that Cindy, Debet, Dana, Glam et al. were trying to drive them to that, but it didn't work. I think it is a surprise to the community at large that we didn't do that.

Yes, this.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me."

I agree with all of this. Acknowledge the hurt caused, ask how to make it better, and commit to changed behavior going forward.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me." Or, at the very least, two genuine apologies, even if no thanks. I think everyone I've seen post agree that Cindy, Debet, Dana, Glam et al. were trying to drive them to that, but it didn't work. I think it is a surprise to the community at large that we didn't do that.

I agree with all of this. Acknowledge the hurt caused, ask how to make it better, and commit to changed behavior going forward.

Thank you for summing this up. Since we are talking about making some assumptions about expected behavior explicit, I think it is helpful to make the consensus explicit as well.

And please feel free to participate or not as your mental state allows.

100% this. The same goes to you, Glamcookie, or anyone else who is too triggered by this discussion.

Agree agree agree about both parts of the consensus, and about none of the caller-outers having any obligation to keep engaging and keep educating even when it costs you. The degree to which you do should be entirely your own choice, and the one obligation is the one the community has to make this a safe place for you whatever your choice.

I have been reading and following all of this and have been quiet, intentionally. It's taken me a lot of years to learn that typically the last thing these conversations need is the input of a white male, that representation is taken care of. My job is to listen and learn.

Catching up on all of this. I’m so saddened by this whole situation, but I want to offer my support. I’ve spent a lot of time working on the concept of intent vs. impact — I got called out (rightly) by a colleague for something I wrote in an email last summer, and it was very painful for me to let go of my feelings of “but that’s not what I meant,” especially as someone who tries hard to be an ally. As painful as it was, I am glad it happened. I was reminded how important it is to set aside my own hurt and listen to the person who was impacted and to own that, apologizing without condition. I missed the initial conflict on the board, but it took courage for sj to speak up, and I’m grateful she did so. I’m very sad that Katie B and Laura were so hurt and felt attacked; I know they are both good people with no bad intent, but if someone was hurt, the impact was still there. So. I don’t have much to add except that these conversations as always fraught. In case it’s useful to anyone else, I found this article about how to respond to being called out useful in my own process last year: [link]

Much love to all.

And sometimes even when you are part of a group, if others don't know that, or you're not talking to group members, stuff can come across really differently. There's shit I'd talk about my queer community or jokes I'd make about lesbians to my friends that not only would not be cool if a straight person were making them, but would be not so cool if I were making them TO a bunch of straight people? Like "yes, I am part of this community and therefore I am making fun of it and giving you the right to laugh at it!" And sometimes I might make those jokes to straight friends and know they are allies enough to be laughing with me rather than at my community....but...it can be a line. And I've seen that happen sometimes and it's hard. (Which is not at all the same as saying something you don't realize is not cool or isn't intended to reference what it does, but rather an example of even when you think you're on solid ground sometimes you can realize you're not?)

....I'm not sure what my point really is here, but yeah, I guess "please check me if I say something and hopefully it's that I was unaware and not that I was doing my best "you damn snowflake millennial I'm technically GenX and we don't roll that way!" impression?

....I'm not sure what my point really is here

Context definitely matters!