One more thing:

A big part of different 'isms work is to break it down, so I expect that thread will get political.

My life as a lesbian and sj's life as a disabled person are politicized not because we want them to be, but because society at large forces it on us. We have no choice but to do the work and try to educate others - our safety is on the line. It's politics to those outside of our communities but it's our day-to-day lives, you know? And that is why these discussions are super hard and triggering. When folks talk about not everyone having had the education and wonder why we get passionate and upset, it's because this is our lives all the time. And if our own friends and allies don't do the work and at least listen when we speak up, it leads to sadness and rage. At least it does for me, not wanting to speak for sj. It's easy to have logical, calm discussions when you're not a part of the group being discussed.

If the answer is no, then this space is unsafe and unwelcoming to minorities.

I agree and I understand this. I wrote this as a suggestion because I think there is a substantial shift (a move?) from an implicit state of "no one wishes harm to anyone, so we don't have rules for that when it happens but we trust everyone to play along", to an active, explicit state of "no one wishes harm to anyone, and we have rules for that when it happens". I think all of us need to be aware of where we are posting, if we choose to be an active part of this community: are we posting in a community where the Do No Harm rule is implicit or explicit? Each answer comes with a price (to some), and impacts all of us. That is why I want to hear more views on this, to understand where we are on this as a community.

(Not sure where the FAQ is these days on the new board, but I don't recall anything about it there).

Edited to add:

It's politics to those outside of our communities but it's our day-to-day lives, you know?

Yeah. After a few years of living with an illness in my 20s I volunteered as an accessibility coordinator in some communities. I had to quit after three years. While I managed to successfully implement accessibility guidelines and procedures, the rage and advocacy took a toll. I still follow what happens in these communities and get raged on a monthly basis. The eugenics-speak following COVID-19 makes me rage on a daily basis. So I think I can understand.

And:

Also, Shir, the new thread is currently off the table as I retracted my proposal because the conversation was way too much for me to handle mentally and emotionally.

I wanted to mention it because I still think it's a good idea and wanted to support this suggestion even when it's off the table, even if it gets political, but I understand why you retracted it. Thank you for suggesting it.

Also, Shir, the new thread is currently off the table as I retracted my proposal because the conversation was way too much for me to handle mentally and emotionally.

And if our own friends and allies don't do the work and at least listen when we speak up, it leads to sadness and rage. At least it does for me, not wanting to speak for sj. It's easy to have logical, calm discussions when you're not a part of the group being discussed.

Yes, you speak for me on this. I'm trying really hard to just let it go, but...

Yes, you speak for me on this. I'm trying really hard to just let it go, but...

We can't let it go - that's the problem here. We can "let it go" in terms of the call out and discussion, but it will fester in us and we will not forget how these convos go because they have consequences for us. These convos let us know who is safe and who is not, and that is so painful when it's our friends.

Technical: I updated and edited my post above [link] and responded to some sentences there - got a phone call in the middle of editing, so just wanted to make sure you'll see the edits.

(And now I'm going to make food or else there will be no dinner, but I'll return later).

Yes, you speak for me on this. I'm trying really hard to just let it go, but...

But you shouldn't have to just let it go. Is continuing to talk about this too hard on you, though? I'll be honest, my goal is to get you to feel comfortable and good about staying. And Glam. Any anyone else who is reading along and feeling it. I was really happy to see you posting in Natter.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me." Or, at the very least, two genuine apologies, even if no thanks. I think everyone I've seen post agree that Cindy, Debet, Dana, Glam et al. were trying to drive them to that, but it didn't work. I think it is a surprise to the community at large that we didn't do that.

So, to answer Shir's question: I want to be part of a community where it is explicit that if something needs to be called out, and it is, it's the responsibility of the called out party to look past any shock at being called out and really look at why. That's asking a lot, but it's not asking too much. It's the bare minimum we can all do - put aside our possibly hurt feelings to look at why something you've said is personally and minority groupfully (forgive the clunkiness) harmful. I want to know when I do that. I don't want to go around blithely, unintentionally saying something that I think is totally innocent that is, in fact, harmful to a person or perpetuating a harmful attitude even if no one from said group is present. And I want to recognize it when other people do it (not just here, but in the wider world). I also don't want to try to smooth it over on someone else's (or the community's) behalf -- that's dismissive and, really, takes away their opportunity to take responsibility.

Again, from my past: It's more important to me to avoid potential hurt than to hold on to defend my using something like, say, the word gypped, as innocent. Was it? Yes. Did I know where it came from? No. Do I now? Yes, and thank you to whatever article or whatever pointed that out to me. Do I still use it? Nope. Do I point it out if ever I hear it? Yes. Have I ever run into someone of Roma descent? I don't think so, but it doesn't actually matter.

Should it be sj's or Glam's responsibility to bring someone's attention to something like that? No, but do they have a choice? I mean, yes, of course, but stuffing it down and ignoring it to "get along" isn't a good option, and they shouldn't have to do that (anymore and shouldn't have had to ever) in the world. And I appreciate the hell out of it that they do/did point thing out and are still here talking even though it's painful. I really do. And the links you've shared have been informative, Glam, thank you. It's 100% on me to educate myself on a LOT of things to do my part to drive toward equity all around. But, I know that sometimes I just don't know what I don't know yet; it is a privilege to have people who care enough about me to point it out. I'm sorry it's necessary, though.

Is continuing to talk about this too hard on you, though?

Kind of. I mean it's an important conversation, and I want to contribute to it. However, I also have a bunch of other stuff going on right now, and I just want my safe space to feel safe again.

I think there's a consensus (and I think you are included in this thinking, sj) that 1) what you did was the right thing to do - to speak up - and 2) surprise that your doing that didn't trigger an immediate apology and "thanks for pointing that out to me." Or, at the very least, two genuine apologies, even if no thanks. I think everyone I've seen post agree that Cindy, Debet, Dana, Glam et al. were trying to drive them to that, but it didn't work. I think it is a surprise to the community at large that we didn't do that.

And, yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Also, I think most of the posters here know I'm not a confrontational person. It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

I'm sorry about the sequelae, but I am glad you spoke up. I think we needed to clarify what the expectations were around mistakes, call outs, and responses thereunto. It's a hard conversation to have, even among people of good intentions such as this group.

It took a lot for me to gather the courage to speak up, and I feel physically ill from all that has resulted from that choice.

It did take a ton of courage. Thank you so much for trying to educate. And please feel free to participate or not as your mental state allows. I have had to step away several times as well during these discussions - it's really really hard.