And that would have been the end of it.

I concur.

I too have been pondering all day (and most of last night).

I am regretting saying we should take the conversation out of Good Bye and Good Riddance, because it was uncomfortable there and I was uncomfortable there. But I think we may be having a productive conversation now. As Glamcookie said, we have to be uncomfortable with being uncomfortable because it is the only way to have productive discussions. I think maybe that thread might have been a good place to have the discussion because it is very indicative of 2020. I apologize for that, because it seems to me now like sweeping it under the rug because I was uncomfortable.

sj, I also want to thank you for saying something originally, and Debetesse and Cindy and anyone else who I missed. You were OK with being uncomfortable, while I was not.

So- I think now we have a problem to solve, which of course will never be solved, but it is what do we do to make people feel safe? Unfortunately, I think sj FELT safe and then wasn't which makes me a little sick. Because I was beyond shocked at the response, but like JZ, I am a Gen-Xer who works in Higher Education, I am on the school council for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, and I am just steeped in this stuff. I don't say this as signaling, but just that I have had a lot more education and I still step in the guac.

In truth, I think a lot of it is just doing the work within ourselves and cannot be mandated by the board- how do you engage when you have stepped in the guac? But we can't let those consquences (defensive guac steppers) keep us from pointing missteps and hurtful words in a kind way, and the consequences may just be that we lose good, well meaning members, unfortunately.

It seems to me we may need a step between "resolve in thread" and "warn, ban", but I also think that might be giving in to current bad cultural norms about speech...

Or we need a guideline for guac steppers? How to respond? What to do besides letting it flow by or being defensive. I think Glam's suggestion above (I will admit that I smartet for years after the voting discussion because I percieved I was being called Madame Mao for being bossy).

If you are not disabled/gay/black/trans, trust your disabled/gay/black/trans friend when they tell you something is harmful. It's that simple. Apologize and ask for assistance either through a conversation or a reference to website if you don't understand.

I think you have the right of it there, Glam. Beyond that, knowing the components of an apology vs. a defense of self or intention is key, as demonstrated in your examples.

Because I think it's relevant to this discussion: To be slightly humiliatingly honest, this a lesson I have only learned with varying degrees of success within the last few years and due mostly to my DP pointing out more than once that, while he believes I intended no harm, to say something like, "I'm sorry you thought I was being dismissive," is not actually an apology, is, in and of itself dismissive, and also invalidates his feelings. I might as well have appended, "...because I wasn't being dismissive, so you're wrong for thinking I was, and it hurts my feelings that you think I was, so, actually, you ow ME an apology."

I... probably did actually say similar more than once, before the whole concept clicked for me. Yeah. It's not a good look, and I cringe in retrospect.

In terms of how to apologize, I'd like to share this video again because it's so wonderfully informative without shaming and Franchesca Ramsey even provides her own example of being called out and how she went from defensiveness to a place of growth. I refer to it all the time - it's fab. [link]

And thank you JenP for your example and how folks switch up the transgression so that they are the victim and are owed an apology. That is not how it works.

Glam, thanks for sharing that video - I'm going to pass that onto my colleague who runs our monthly D&I conversation series and see if we can work it into an upcoming session.

That's a great video, Glamcookie. Thanks for sharing that.

I also appreciate the work that you--and others--are doing here.

Should I close Lightbulbs?

I hesitate to say this, and I don't think it would ever be a problem, but I think Laura's an admin. Should we change that?

Might vote would be no.

Should I close Lightbulbs?

Yes.