That's a great video, Glamcookie. Thanks for sharing that.

I also appreciate the work that you--and others--are doing here.

Should I close Lightbulbs?

I hesitate to say this, and I don't think it would ever be a problem, but I think Laura's an admin. Should we change that?

Might vote would be no.

Should I close Lightbulbs?

Yes.

I've been hesitant to add anything to the conversation because I'm in a pretty asynchronous time zone, often on mobile, and, well, there's a lot of talking already happening.

If it would be helpful for me to add my "commentary" about my post, I can, but I'll otherwise let people more in a position to participate participate.

I initially skimmed/misread some things amongst the flurry of posts and deleting, and now understand a bit more what happened. I'm a bit confused where we've landed, though. I hate to have people feel like leaving is the best option.

I am sorry it took me so long to respond, but I could only have the time to so on the weekend. It's a hard conversation and I needed time to write this down, and think this through, and re-reading my words. For these reasons it's not a thing that I have the time to do during weekdays, but it doesn't mean I don't want to acknowledge or want to ignore what happened here during the week.

First, all who were directly involved: I am sorry. I am sorry that your trust in this community is lessened. sj, thank you for writing and speaking up. It's important and I'm glad you did it. Thank you. Laura and KB, I am sorry that you feel attacked, and I can understand why you feel this way.

I think that there are several axes in play that make this difficult to discuss or find a consensual solution to. The first is our (that is, a Buffista) tendency to write here in a manner that can be interpreted as a tiny personal thought and as a town hall speech at the same time. When it's working, it creates a sense of intimacy and a sense of belonging. When it doesn't, and when people thought they were just expressing a tiny thing that they didn't think through, it may lead to conflicts and leaving. Which brings me to the second point: we have different preferences and ways of handling conflict. A public thread to have difficult conversations in will not fit all, even if they would like to learn more and do better. A third point is how and when we practice what we believe in: not only we vary in this, but we also have different pace of doing so (like me only responding here on the weekend. I also understand those who will need two weeks or even six months to grok the conversation that took place here and in Lightbulbs to understand what they make of it. It takes time, and we are not all on the same page or timezone, literally and metaphorically. The last factor that's at play here is culture. The U.S alone has many cultures in it, and the context to what we bring from our cultures and how we say it on the board matters. The relationship between politics and culture and when culture acts as politics and when it's just context is a giant topic in itself. And then we have international culture, and internet culture, and Buffista culture. It can and will change, because that's how cultures work and grow. And we are at a point where we need to decide if and how we want to change the culture here.

I want the thread Glamcookie suggested because I want to learn more and do better, even with all of the concerns and caveats listed above. But I am also with Zenkitty's [link] and Atropa's posts on this: that thread, no matter how many good intentions are behind it, will not solve conflicts, and I am not sure if it will be the place to have these conversations. It may reduce them - and that might be a enough of a reason to have it - but I am not sure if the hard conversations can take place there in a productive manner. I also don't know how and if we can separate between the contexts that different cultures and upbringings bring and the politics behind them. A big part of different 'isms work is to break it down, so I expect that thread will get political.

My suggestion is to make clear and public if this is a community where we would like to be called out if speaking in a manner that hurts other people, whether through a backstage channel or a public one. If we have a positive consensus on that, we then might proceed to how-we-would-like-to-be-called-out discussions (public or private communication? Whose job is it to be the communicator? What happens if a person would not apologize or amend their ways? What is the difference between being called out and a warning?).

I personally would like to know if my words are hurtful to others. I think that there were a few times in the past where people were trying to get my attention to a poor choice of wording and I couldn't understand this in real time because I am from a very direct, in-your-face culture and I need more than a "hi Shir, re: X term. Why did you say that?" to understand that there's a problem. "Hi Shir, X term is used in such and such situations and is offensive to some people. Is that what you were trying to say?" will work, though. There is a post from 2011 that I vividly remember to this day where I was angry and dismissive towards some religious Jews and not called out, and I very much regret my wording there (I will not delete/edit it, unless the post on this board will become googable in the future).

I also take into consideration that I've been here since I was 22, and I learned a lot since then - and still learning, thanks to you and your kind discussions and words. But I'm younger than most members of this board, and I've been here since 2007, so my POV might be a minority opinion.

This was a long post. Thank you for reading it.

Thank you for your post, Shir. I would take issue with this:

My suggestion is to make clear and public if this is a community where we would like to be called out if speaking in a manner that hurts other people

If the answer is no, then this space is unsafe and unwelcoming to minorities. This is asking them (us) to stay silent when harmful things are said. It puts the burden on the already over-burdened and prioritizes feelings (I'm hurt because you told me I said something wrong) over lived experiences (I'm hurt because what you said diminishes me and an entire community and if I don't speak up, others will think it's okay to say this moving forward).

And I will add once again that we know in this community that the intent is not to harm. I don't believe anyone here would knowingly say something harmful. But it happens and when it does, it needs to be corrected. I would also like to add that I wish the reverse were true - if you are called out, know that the intent is not to shame but to educate on one's own personal experiences.

One more thing:

A big part of different 'isms work is to break it down, so I expect that thread will get political.

My life as a lesbian and sj's life as a disabled person are politicized not because we want them to be, but because society at large forces it on us. We have no choice but to do the work and try to educate others - our safety is on the line. It's politics to those outside of our communities but it's our day-to-day lives, you know? And that is why these discussions are super hard and triggering. When folks talk about not everyone having had the education and wonder why we get passionate and upset, it's because this is our lives all the time. And if our own friends and allies don't do the work and at least listen when we speak up, it leads to sadness and rage. At least it does for me, not wanting to speak for sj. It's easy to have logical, calm discussions when you're not a part of the group being discussed.