Mad Men:

Sorry to keep hopping back and forth to this topic, but I need to be able to quote and type longer stuff, which I can't do on my phone, which is where I am coming from mostly these days.

Liese, I found the whole thing quite jarring and moved me out of being amused by Roger to rooting for his inevitable self-destruction.

Yeah, quester, I think this is where I ended up, too. Which makes me sad, because I'd like to like Roger. I'd like to feel wistful about how he would have been so much better off with Joan and how she could have successfully bullied him into being a better man. But at this point, I think I don't care.

Are we really supposed to like any of the Mad Men characters?

I suppose not, -t. I think it's admirable that all the characters have enough depth that we can feel this way about them. But I have a tough time when there isn't some way to alleviate the lack of sympathetic players in the scene.

Ah. Of course. Thank you for putting it like that.

Glad that was helpful. Like I said, I'm still processing, so it's something of a self-revelatory journey for me too.

Liese, I guess knowing that people like Roger felt that way about people like me is offset (for me) by the many people of Roger's generation that could have felt that way but instead were welcoming and open-minded

Sumi, I'm glad you chimed in. I agree. I suppose I just wish I could see some of that too, in the context of the show. I know that the idea is to present the ideas that were prevalent in the era. And I guess it would be difficult to give a contrast without it being a tip of the hat to modernity. But I know there were people fighting for civil rights in the era. I know there were people, normal everyday people, who were just neighbors to Japanese folks in ways that were extraordinary to the times. But I wish we could see those people.

I know there are stories about how some of the folks that lived next door to the Japanese-American families being interned moved in and helped them keep their farms and businesses. Lots more lost theirs, so those actions were extraordinary. Those stories were happening in the context of actual wartime, let alone by the time of Mad Men.

Yes, this is all time appropriate, but given the public political discussions in the US at this time, I am ill-humored about it.

Yeah, le nubian, I think this is kind of why it's pinging me so badly at the moment. I know we're supposed to be uncomfortable with the depiction. It's supposed to make us think about the contrast with today's society. But sadly it also makes me think about the similarities. My ire wouldn't be so raised, I don't think, if I hadn't just been staring at pixels that exhibited current racism against the Japanese in an attempt to justify current racism against Muslims.

Anyway, that's probably enough of the thinky, but I had to get it out. And what better place than here? I appreciate the discourse.

And I appreciate the discourse, too. Which is a meta-reason to watch and discuss something like Madmen, which makes us examine our reactions to characters and situations.

I don't know what it is about the show-- maybe it's just knowing Matt Weiner's zeal for authenticity, but I'm able to suspend the scrim of time and place and individual when I watch it in a way I've never done for any show before. Which is to say, that I don't ascribe any particular attitude to the writers of the show based on what the subject matter is-- I accept it as the way of the world at that time. It seems natural to me that Roger would have such a deep-seated prejudice against the Japanese based on his background. That Joan would have still married Dr. Douchewad even after he raped her. That Betty's behavior would easily be classified as child abuse today. I don't see that the way Don achieved the business deal as the show tacitly approving of his behavior-- it was simply the sort of end-around a character such as Don would have undertaken, putting aside any personal feelings he might have in order to get the deal done.

It's not that it's right or wrong. It's simply how things were. Which makes me appreciate the little victories of a character such as Peggy's. You see the things we now take for granted, being fought for and achieved in tiny, almost infinitesimal ways. The passage of time taking its toll, both good and bad on the varying characters.

Just kind of a meta overall thought on the show for me. Perhaps my interpretations of it are somewhat colored because I've been living mentally in that same world with the latest story I've been working on, so I've had to put myself in the heads of similarly-inclined characters. (And some of it inspires revulsion, trust me, but if I want the story to read with truth, I have to do it.)

It's not that it's right or wrong. It's simply how things were.

But I think that's what Liese is objecting to - by presenting Don's ploy working as "simply how things were," the show makes assumptions about Japanese business culture that are based on stereotypes and cliche.

Now granted, the same is true in many cases about the show's presentation of American business culture, but we also see examples of what else Americans were like in the early 60's. S1 was all about showing the audience first, here is a cliched 1950's office environment and second, here's why it's rapidly becoming dated in its own time. Honda, by contrast, is a one-ep gag whose primary purpose is to show us that Don is clever and Roger is racist.

Snippets from John's latest answer post:

Parker's foster parents were in the house when it exploded.

Christian Kane performed the stunt where he got hit by the car in The Boost Job himself.

But I think that's what Liese is objecting to - by presenting Don's ploy working as "simply how things were," the show makes assumptions about Japanese business culture that are based on stereotypes and cliche.

But aren't they stereotypes and clichés as they would have existed in that time?

And I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I saw the Honda issue as showing us that Don, himself, thinks he's clever and that Roger doesn't see himself as a racist but sees his attitude as perfectly justified.

And I'm doing a crappy job of explaining myself and by no means, am I discounting Liese's discomfort with the turn the show took in that episode.

But aren't they stereotypes and clichés as they would have existed in that time?

They're the same ones that exist today - Japanese are obsessed with formalities, they highly value honor and rules, they're easily offended by Americans who don't know those rules, etc etc etc.

That Don's scheme worked implies strongly that the writers believe those stereotypes to be true. If he had failed - if the Honda execs had looked at him and said "You're crazy - why would you think we'd pick a company who presented nothing over one that bent the rules a little and really impressed us??" - we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

They're the same ones that exist today - Japanese are obsessed with formalities, they highly value honor and rules, they're easily offended by Americans who don't know those rules, etc etc etc.

Weren't Japanese business practices in the sixties very formal though?

How is that more or less stereotypical than getting whores for clients in Manhattan?

You've made me very thinky, Liese.

Most of thinking is ongoing, but I have reached one conclusion. The few times that I've read behind-the-scenese interviews and whatnot regarding Mad Men, they made me like the show less, so I pretty much stopped reading them. But I think the reason for that is that the show's intent and what I get from it are very different. In part because I don't see these characters as first-person past. And partly because things that are widespread are not necessarily universal and I feel like that distinction is not made in the universe building.

Which I don't exactly mean as a ding, just that, I don't think they are doing what they think they are doing, but what they are actually doing is worth watching, to me, anyway.

Well, that's a nice muddy thought that doesn't say much. Back in the oven with you, idea.

How is that more or less stereotypical than getting whores for clients in Manhattan?

Because for every time the show gives us something cliched about American business culture, it also gives us the exception to that rule - we're shown over and over again that not everyone is like that, even in this time and place.

By contrast, every Japanese exec we've seen so far has been a confirmation of stereotypes rather than an exploration. And since clients in this show tend to be foils for the main characters, I'm guessing we're not going to see Don's assumptions challenged any time soon.