I don't think the point was no lying, it was that the plot doesn't hinge on the kind of obvious lies that in real life no one would buy. Or at least that's my take. It reminds me of romance novel critiques where one of the tests were "could the entire conflict of the plot have been resolved by someone asking one question that any reasonable person in that circumstance would ask?" A surprising number fail.

I think the no *stupid* lie part was pretty dead on. Yes Neal lies, and Peter knows it, but they aren't stupid lies, really.

He said:

The same holds true for Neal and Peter; they rarely lie

Neal doesn't rarely lie to Peter--he lies to him about once an ep. Peter doesn't lie to Neal. He brutalises him with the truth, in fact. Keeps him in check with it.

I agree with him that arcs don't hinge on lies being believed, but I think it's mischaracterising the relationship to say they're rarely told.

I know he's very attached to Neal being a good little sub, but he's not that good.

Fair point. I was focusing on his point about how it's not the lies that drive the plot. They are there, but because Peter almost always knows about them, they are pretty secondary to the plot arc.

At a certain level I agree with that reading, in that it's true that there are often plot points relying on stupid lies, and that's not true in this show. But that's just better writing, I think. I don't think it necessarily implies a dom/sub relationship insofar as that goes.

I think the relationship is more complex than that. Neal is often trying to subvert what Peter is trying to do. And at least at a certain point in the season we, and Neal as our POV character, were unclear on Peter's intentions and loyalties. I think it's that tug of war that make their relationship dynamic and interesting.

I absolutely have no idea where they'll take the sexual relationship next season.

I agree with him that arcs don't hinge on lies being believed, but I think it's mischaracterising the relationship to say they're rarely told.

Yeah, I kind of skimmed past that aspect of it.

But that's just better writing, I think. I don't think it necessarily implies a dom/sub relationship insofar as that goes.

It's a slightly radical interpretation of the text. I can see it, but I agree it's not the whole story.

Finally saw the WC finale. Whew! Naked Neal in the pool, naked Neal sculpting, naked Neal touching the little naked man statue, El getting mad, Peter punching Fowler for El, long looks of angst-ridden love, Neal's goodbye gift to El, poor Moz, please let that bitch Kate be really dead, and lord lord Peter RAN to the airport to say goodbye to Neal and Neal CRIED over leaving him, lord. What would Neal have done if the choice hadn't been taken away? I think he would have left and regretted it forever. Especially after he found out that Kate didn't love him. Well, except for that he'd've been dead. No slashier show has ever aired.

Pffft. Gus and Shawn are brotherly. These two would be Doing It if Peter weren't married.

Truth. They could be doing it anyway; Elizabeth would so be in. What other wife would accept her husband's pet criminal and their obsession with each other as a totally normal part of their relationship? *less than 3* OT3!

Accept? Hell, El was pushing Peter towards Neal at the start. That's why I didn't see the OT3 in the start--I saw her as an eager voyeuse, though.

Accept? Hell, El was pushing Peter towards El at the start.

Towards Neal?

Der. Yes. Editing.