Wait, did the YED kill Lily directly, or did Ava? Because at the end, Sam said that they could safely leave because Ava was no longer controlling the demon.

Wait, did the YED kill Lily directly, or did Ava?

I'm guessing it was Ava, but since they're all being manipulated by the YED I'm giving ultimate attribution to him.

Superstrong: "blacks are strong"
Stab in the back: "minorities are untrustworthy"

Quick poll Boxed Set poll:

Is the blacks are strong stereotype still powerful for you (not you, Liese, since obviously it is)? Same thing with the black person as treacherous.

So probably we're not going to get round to the bit where we both go, "Oh, what you're saying is right." We have different pings.

No, I'm asking something different, really. Jake wasn't written, as far as I can tell, with any race-related flesh. It's what your experience puts on him. There's personal experience (which I'd be a fool to try and argue with) and then there's a cultural gestalt--that's the other thing I'm interested in drilling down into.

Honestly, I had no idea that there was a stereotype (or even an opinion pervasive enough) that blacks will kill you when your back is turned (I'd have thought we're gang bangers who will fuck you up to your face, if pressed to have an opinion) that the writers should be careful of once the role is cast. Conversely, please don't cast a black guy as the first person killed in a spooky scenario. Just don't. That's culture-wide in North America, as far as I can tell.

Touch of death: "Lesbian touching is bad and wrong."
Death by hanging: "The only way out is conversion or despair."

Hmm. I get the touch of death alarm, but I don't get the death by hanging (I mean, I see the point, but since she didn't kill herself rather than keep being in the town, it would never have occurred to me--however, you hang the black guy and I'm going to freak out (my issues) and look at you funny (because you might still want to tiptoe around that for a decade or so).

Sam said that Ava got a headache at the moment Lily was killed (I missed that), so I'm guessing it was attributed to her.

I was pinged by the "dead lesbian" trope, but not Jake. I reacted to Lily's death by rolling my eyes back in my head and muttering, "Oh, show. Honestly."

Lilly annoyed me so I was fine when she died and when she revealed her power I thought of Rogue and also whatsherface from Angel. Mostly Rogue though so I was wondering if Lilly normally wore elbow length gloves.

Is the blacks are strong stereotype still powerful for you (not you, Liese, since obviously it is)? Same thing with the black person as treacherous.

I don't ping either of these. Or at least, I didn't in this case. I didn't think his race was tied into his character that strongly. More tied in was "soldier" and "survivor." But, like Sail said, maybe I'm more of a shallow viewer.

The "dead lesbian" trope didn't ping me either. I saw "outsider," but because of the killing touch. She didn't want to leave, but she was desperate to, and she was killed by a demon (made to look as if she had done it herself). She was a victim, just like the rest of them. (But maybe, see above re: shallow.)

SailAweigh is me. I am unpinged.

I didn't realize "blacks are strong" was a stereotype. I actually thought Jake was going against stereotype, because I think soldiers are usually portrayed as white.

I also didn't put "lesbian" together with "killing touch" as some sort of commentary. It wasn't central to her character. She could have just as well been heterosexual. I think it was just a matter of, hey, she could also just as well be a lesbian, so why not? I hate that everything has to be handled with kid gloves; I thought the whole point of equality was that people aren't that different from each other. The lesbian died, sure, but so did the heterosexual woman, PLUS she was evil.

I thought the whole point of equality was that people aren't that different from each other.

It's not an instant switch. There will always be things that are tasteless in some contexts, or at best trigger so many other associations that the original point is obscured.

What I'm interested in is where that line lies for other people.

For me, the race of a young man hung from a tree is not interchangeable. If the guy is white, I can feel a range of emotions based on what the writing's trying to do. If the guy is black, I can't hear the words anymore and I'm flashed back to black men being lynched by rampaging mobs for little to no reason, and with no redress.

Everyone has their own issues--if I was watching a British piece that did that, I honestly would be less pinged. That's nowhere the icon of prejudice in the UK. Here, I think it's way too close.

You can't be all equal now and ignore entirely when you weren't. People are still merely human.

I thought the whole point of equality was that people aren't that different from each other.

Equality is all well and good, but I believe that is important to keep overdone tropes in mind when creating fictional characters. I see the way that characters are handled within a cultural and historical context. There is a long history of queer characters being punished for their sexuality by death, and that death being associated with a sexual act. So when the only queer character we've ever seen on SPN kills her girlfriend by touching her, it pings me enough to mention it.

I think ita makes a good point with the hanging of a black character, above. If, say, Lilly had ended up beaten and strung up on a fence post, well, I'd be making a lot more noise about it.

P-C, honestly curious - does the way that South Asian characters are portrayed in popular culture ever bother you?