Is the blacks are strong stereotype still powerful for you (not you, Liese, since obviously it is)? Same thing with the black person as treacherous.

I don't ping either of these. Or at least, I didn't in this case. I didn't think his race was tied into his character that strongly. More tied in was "soldier" and "survivor." But, like Sail said, maybe I'm more of a shallow viewer.

The "dead lesbian" trope didn't ping me either. I saw "outsider," but because of the killing touch. She didn't want to leave, but she was desperate to, and she was killed by a demon (made to look as if she had done it herself). She was a victim, just like the rest of them. (But maybe, see above re: shallow.)

SailAweigh is me. I am unpinged.

I didn't realize "blacks are strong" was a stereotype. I actually thought Jake was going against stereotype, because I think soldiers are usually portrayed as white.

I also didn't put "lesbian" together with "killing touch" as some sort of commentary. It wasn't central to her character. She could have just as well been heterosexual. I think it was just a matter of, hey, she could also just as well be a lesbian, so why not? I hate that everything has to be handled with kid gloves; I thought the whole point of equality was that people aren't that different from each other. The lesbian died, sure, but so did the heterosexual woman, PLUS she was evil.

I thought the whole point of equality was that people aren't that different from each other.

It's not an instant switch. There will always be things that are tasteless in some contexts, or at best trigger so many other associations that the original point is obscured.

What I'm interested in is where that line lies for other people.

For me, the race of a young man hung from a tree is not interchangeable. If the guy is white, I can feel a range of emotions based on what the writing's trying to do. If the guy is black, I can't hear the words anymore and I'm flashed back to black men being lynched by rampaging mobs for little to no reason, and with no redress.

Everyone has their own issues--if I was watching a British piece that did that, I honestly would be less pinged. That's nowhere the icon of prejudice in the UK. Here, I think it's way too close.

You can't be all equal now and ignore entirely when you weren't. People are still merely human.

I thought the whole point of equality was that people aren't that different from each other.

Equality is all well and good, but I believe that is important to keep overdone tropes in mind when creating fictional characters. I see the way that characters are handled within a cultural and historical context. There is a long history of queer characters being punished for their sexuality by death, and that death being associated with a sexual act. So when the only queer character we've ever seen on SPN kills her girlfriend by touching her, it pings me enough to mention it.

I think ita makes a good point with the hanging of a black character, above. If, say, Lilly had ended up beaten and strung up on a fence post, well, I'd be making a lot more noise about it.

P-C, honestly curious - does the way that South Asian characters are portrayed in popular culture ever bother you?

You can't be all equal now and ignore entirely when you weren't. People are still merely human.

Yes, this. It's like people pretending that racism doesn't exist anymore, or that feminism is no longer relevant. Pop culture in general and SPN in particular inter-reference and allude all the time. There are connections and things resonate, and that includes the handling of minority characters.

Clearly, YMMV, as we're seeing in this thread.

ita, I said above but will repeat in response to your poll: I do not associate strength or betrayal with black characters. I associated Jake more with his soldier role, but don't necessarily feel that that role was necessarily handled that well.

eta totally not going all Kitten here. And now I have to leave my computer, so if I don't respond immediately, that's why.

don't necessarily feel that that role was necessarily handled that well

It worked for me in the recognition of authority through fear, and a certain remorselessness. The betrayal at the end--I'd have liked to see his soldier façade explicitly crack some, or get more of a sense that he wasn't a great soldier. I didn't see the play of emotions across his face that'd nuance it for me.

That being said--who said Sam was in his army? Still, I'd ask for more there.

I'll have to finish my rewatch, but wasn't Jake's motivation not only, only one of us can get out, but the conviction that he was the stronger of the two, and thus the most likely to be able to kill the demon?

P-C, honestly curious - does the way that South Asian characters are portrayed in popular culture ever bother you?

Yes, because they're always portrayed as convenience store owners and never as motel owners, which is closer to the truth.

But seriously, I don't think I've even seen that many South Asian characters in popular culture. They're usually convenience store owners or doctors, and I do like when they're not, but I don't make a fuss when they are. At least Indian actors are getting work, right? And, yes, I think that if SPN introduced an Indian character and then killed him off, I would be a little miffed, but it's the nature of the beast with this show, as someone mentioned.

wasn't Jake's motivation not only, only one of us can get out

Hmm. So, if Ava's dead, they can all leave. Is the assumption on the part of the YED that whoever wins will want to stay? So Sam's a bad choice because he wants to save everyone and leave, and Jake's a little less bad because he is willing to kill to leave. Still, much with the leaving.

At least, that's the conviction I felt. Not sure about whether he was then going to go on a rampage against the darker forces (which makes me think--I'd love to see the boys create a Hunter as a byproduct of their weekly adventures).

(which makes me think--I'd love to see the boys create a Hunter as a byproduct of their weekly adventures)

It would be most excellent if a family member of a victim they've dealt with would show up later as a hunter.

but the conviction that he was the stronger of the two, and thus the most likely to be able to kill the demon?

I read it that way. Probably something that the YED told him (even though he's a LYING LIAR WHO LIES) (or was it someone else?!?) convinced him that he would have to do this, and that Sam would be an unfortunate casualty.

(BTW, I'm so proud of Sam for holding strong in the face of this. I think that's all the answer he needs as to the quality of his character. (Because he's not dead, no sir.))