is Zatanna all that super? Dr. Strange? All the other sorceror types?

Yes, because they bring HUGE amounts of their extra-human resources...magic...to the table and they do it ALOT.

I know that sounds like a contradiction...maybe victor's right with the "some of it you just know in your gut" or possibly even the "well, they have to be heroic". Which also leads to "what's the difference between a 'villain' and a 'supervillain'?"

I guess I don't see John as unheroic. He has the magic/smarts/connections to save the world, plus the desire. He's bitter. and not the slightest bit noble, and has fucked people over, acts out of hubris, but when push comes to shove, he'll save faceless innocents from death or worse.

Pardon the interruption, but since he's here and it's one of the slower threads:

Victor, I tried to email you about the Angel finale at the link that was in press, but it bounced back for some reason. Could you email me the relevant directions to my profile address (or use the Somervillains group - it goes to the same place on my end). I will probably be driving in to Alewife for the day, so that's where I'd be leaving from, if that narrows down the instructions you'd be giving.

And now back to your regularly scheduled "what makes a superhero" discussion.

Good point.

Perhaps what qualifies a character as "heroic" by the unwritten rules of the spandex crowd is that being "heroic" is their prime reason for doing what they do. They set out each day or night to save people and punish evildoers and whatnot, rather than guys like Constantine who are heroic by accident...that is, they'll save people but it usually interrupts what they were doing in the first place.

Which is begging a question -- is Zatanna all that super? Dr. Strange? All the other sorceror types?

They are, for a lot of the same reasons I've given for, say, Superman.

And I'm not saying John's not heroic. Quite the contrary, really. I think he's a right bastard who does heroic things. And despicable things. And he may well be a hero--or, at least, an antihero--but I don't think he's as "idealized" to be a "super-hero."

Also, he's not Keanu Reaves, but that's getting even farther afield.

Frank, I'll send directions in a day or so.

Wolverine always seems to make it look like heroics are coming between him and a cold beer. Still, he's a member of an organisation (usually).

I'm pretty sure he's a superhero by your definition (which I think I get, but just don't share), right? Is he close to the line?

eta: victor ^^ is Wolvie idealised?

I'd say Wolvie's close to the line. He gets up every day to do heroic stuff, but, as you say, he'd rather be drinkin' a beer and watchin' hockey. The group forces him to be a "superhero".

Belief -- is that it? Belief in an external ideal worth upholding through extraordinary effort?

Belief -- is that it? Belief in an external ideal worth upholding through extraordinary effort?

Certainly that's a big part of it. Superman's never-ending battle for Truth, Justice and what used to be the American Way. Batman's belief that nobody should suffer what he did and those who try and make others suffer what he did should get the holy crap beat out of them.

Some of the legacy heroes have belief systems that seem to be hold-outs from their golden age predecessors. The Barry Allen and Wally West Flashes fight or fought the good fight because...well, Jay Garrick did and he called himself the Flash and if we're going to be the Flash then we have to do as he did...Same with Starman, Nuklon...

Kyle Rayner Green Lantern seems to be doing his heroics because Hal Jordan did. Hal Jordan did becaus Alan Scott did and because the Guardians said "You got the ring, you got the job and this is what the job entails."

Wonder Woman does it because that's her position as princess of Themyscira and her job as Ambassador to the world of man.

Aquaman did it because...well...that's what everybody else who was stronger or had extra-human abilities was doing and when in Rome...

Maybe that argument doesn't always hold up.