In other words, what happens when a commitmentphobe meets a serial monogamist?

Oy vey. Um, they take it verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly?

I don't know that I'm a particularly good parent, and I get kind of frustrated by the continual judging of parents in our society. I mean, short of the actual abusive assholes who are sadly numerous, I think most parents are doing their best, and thinking "you should never have had kids" isn't helping anyone. I certainly have much more tolerance for my parents' failings than I used to.

Because parenting is by far the hardest fucking thing I have ever done. It combines brute physical labor (god, the energy of a two year old!) with psychological torture (sleep deprivation, my old friend) and the need to be constantly on your toes outwitting the kid just to keep her alive at some phases. It's not for wimps. Have a risen to the occasion and grown as a person? Eh.

David, I'm not trying to all up in your grill, but you are the one who described it as selfish:

If I'm misreading that, *please* explain it to me, because it sounds to me like you're saying that people who choose not to have kids in order to have their own lives *are* being selfish.

I was only addressing the people who had self-described themselves as selfish. I probably should've used quote marks to indicate that.

Oh, oops. Okay, then. Sorry. t retracts claws, makes "penitent" face

You're a tough chick, ita. I believe there isn't much you couldn't do, if called upon.(My mom is still impressed with your knived-assailant test, btw.) But it's not like I know all your vulnerable things. ETA: I think if Mom had stayed single, she'd have been Seventies!ita. She enjoys the martial arts stories a bit too much.

Oy vey. Um, they take it verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly?

Um. So I guess spending almost every night together doesn't count, eh?

I'm not used to this whole "she lives in town so I can see her whenever I want" thing!! It's WEIRD!!!

and I get kind of frustrated by the continual judging of parents in our society.

It's totally frustrating. There's so much pressure, once you HAVE the kids, as to what the best way to raise them is, and no one is shy about sharing that. (this is from observed experience, obviously)

It's not for wimps.

Could not be said better.

But I DO want a dog!

Doooooo iiiiiiit! Best decision anyone ever made for me...bullying me into getting Bartleby. He really is my outlet for that maternal thing. But I'm not NUTS or anything...I don't do baby talk or dress him up. He's just a great repository for a bunch of LUV I had lying around.

But I'm not NUTS or anything...I don't do baby talk or dress him up. He's just a great repository for a bunch of LUV I had lying around.

My dogs were the snooze button on my biological clock.

The best defense for dealing with commitmentphobes is to remember that whatever is causing their fear (and we all have plenty of that) is not about you. That's tough to do when the pulling back happens but it really isn't.

I was talking to my sister about an upcoming family wedding that will be adults-only, and they are considering leaving the kids for the weekend and coming up. And she said, you know, I don't even know (her husband) as a person anymore. I know him only as a father, and my partner in raising the kids. And that wigged me out too.

That can definitely happen in a marriage with kids.

Anyway, it seems difficult to articulate a case for parenting without it seeming like an implicit critique of choosing not to have kids. I don't care about societal expectations so I don't really frame the discussion that way. I only know my experience and how it has changed me.

As ever, I may have over generalized my experience. But I would still contend that Cindy's argument is correct. That basic human decency would suffice to compel most of the people here to rise above what ever limits of energy and selfishness they see in themselves. If they had to.