admires extensive personal set of matched luggage

Heh. See, I"m fairly short on baggage, myself. I like to travel light. Which granted, can be its own issue. But. I'm talking just-got-out-of-a-marriage(to a girl), has-been-married-three-times(but only dumped the boy) kinda baggage. Which scares the crap out of me, frankly...especially teh combo of the two together.

In other words, what happens when a commitmentphobe meets a serial monogamist?

ita with migraines galore doubts her ability, but Betsy with migraines galore is still an excellent parent.

And? It's quite possible that Betsy copes well enough to allow her to give of herself in ways that I cannot. In fact, I fucking bet on it.

Parenting does *not* force all parents to grow.

See, I think it does. Not everybody grows into an Earth Mother or World's Greatest Dad, but the role requires you to do a lot more than you did before.

Is there a direct equivalence between growing, and doing a lot more? If doing a lot more involves throwing money at the sprog but no time or attention, does that count as having grown? Is that rising to the occasion of parenthood?

This "grown" thing seems to me not to be a value judgement, but you sure seem to be using it as such.

I'm not sure what you know about me that I don't that means I'd pull some magic changes out of my pocket and be able to handle a fraction of what raising an infant takes.

You can bet how you want, but I have the inside info.

People with kids DO have lives of their own. The ones who really enjoy that are the ones I love the most.

20 years ago, I walked across America with a woman who carried her 6-15 month old on her back. (Or left her with our daycare on some days) That kid now? One of the coolest people you could ever imagine. She sees no limitations, that's for sure.

In other words, what happens when a commitmentphobe meets a serial monogamist?

Oy vey. Um, they take it verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly?

I don't know that I'm a particularly good parent, and I get kind of frustrated by the continual judging of parents in our society. I mean, short of the actual abusive assholes who are sadly numerous, I think most parents are doing their best, and thinking "you should never have had kids" isn't helping anyone. I certainly have much more tolerance for my parents' failings than I used to.

Because parenting is by far the hardest fucking thing I have ever done. It combines brute physical labor (god, the energy of a two year old!) with psychological torture (sleep deprivation, my old friend) and the need to be constantly on your toes outwitting the kid just to keep her alive at some phases. It's not for wimps. Have a risen to the occasion and grown as a person? Eh.

David, I'm not trying to all up in your grill, but you are the one who described it as selfish:

If I'm misreading that, *please* explain it to me, because it sounds to me like you're saying that people who choose not to have kids in order to have their own lives *are* being selfish.

I was only addressing the people who had self-described themselves as selfish. I probably should've used quote marks to indicate that.

Oh, oops. Okay, then. Sorry. t retracts claws, makes "penitent" face

You're a tough chick, ita. I believe there isn't much you couldn't do, if called upon.(My mom is still impressed with your knived-assailant test, btw.) But it's not like I know all your vulnerable things. ETA: I think if Mom had stayed single, she'd have been Seventies!ita. She enjoys the martial arts stories a bit too much.

Oy vey. Um, they take it verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly?

Um. So I guess spending almost every night together doesn't count, eh?

I'm not used to this whole "she lives in town so I can see her whenever I want" thing!! It's WEIRD!!!

and I get kind of frustrated by the continual judging of parents in our society.

It's totally frustrating. There's so much pressure, once you HAVE the kids, as to what the best way to raise them is, and no one is shy about sharing that. (this is from observed experience, obviously)

It's not for wimps.

Could not be said better.

But I DO want a dog!

Doooooo iiiiiiit! Best decision anyone ever made for me...bullying me into getting Bartleby. He really is my outlet for that maternal thing. But I'm not NUTS or anything...I don't do baby talk or dress him up. He's just a great repository for a bunch of LUV I had lying around.