(For those keeping score, prayer worked.)

We already learned this from Mac.

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I'll also note that I don't think everybody would make a good parent. Obviously not. Many people become parents before they're emotionally or financially ready. Many people back into it rather than choose it. Sometimes the marriage itself is not strong enough. Lots of things go wrong. It is a tremendous amount of work and stress.

But as Cindy notes, decent thoughtful people will - for the most part - grow into the role. That is (to my mind, and I've talked about this with Jen) one of the great good things about parenting. It forces you to grow. I had to learn to be more patient. I had to master my temper. I had to pay more attention to housecleaning. I had to put somebody else first. Most people will master being adults somewhere between 25 and 35. When you have children there is no resting on that competence.

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Many of the people I know who are caring for aging parents have at least one sibling who isn't doing a lick except criticizing. They have all of the work of caring for the parents, with extra added resentment for their siblings.

OHHH yeah.

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I'm glad I have siblings, if only to have someone else to understand what it was like growing up with my parents, and to look at me now and roll their eyes about said parents...

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For bettter or worse, you force yourself to do the necessary things. All of you would. You'd experience moments of resentment, but you would. Period. None of you would abandon your child, or leave them uncomforted.

If you're speaking of Buffistas, then I'll grant you that. I assume you aren't speaking of humans in general.

I'm making a distinction here between folks saying they selfishly want to have their own free time so choose not to have kids

I think that *any* reason that anyone chooses not to have kids -- including because they want their own life, unencumbered by kids -- is absolutely valid and not selfish. Maybe wanting your own free time is an act of self-care.

Just because someone chooses to have kids, and therefore give up some of their free time, doesn't mean they are unselfish. All it means is that they have less free time.

I *do* really resent the idea that wanting a life of one's own is somehow seen as selfish. If I want to determine my own destiny and life path, and that includes not having children because I simply don't want to be encumbered by such, why is that automatically selfish?

Merely by virtue of being a member of the human race, I am not obligated to breed. If I choose not to have kids because I want my own life, and that's a selfish act, tell me: who does it hurt? And don't you DARE say it hurts *me,* because you don't get to make that judgement call about my own life.

No one gets hurt if I choose not to have kids in order to have my own life. But if I have kids out of this guilt that I *should* in order to not appear selfish, then I am going to resent those kids on some level, and it's going to come through in my relationship with them, and THAT will, in fact, hurt someone -- the kids.

Having kids and sacrificing your free time as a result doesn't make anyone a better person than anyone else. It just doesn't.

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I call bullshit.

I think you'd rise to the occasion. And I do think most of the people in this discussion would as well.

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she is the sole support for her aging mother. And, awful as it is to say, her mother is pretty much a selfish, neurotic, passive-aggressive bitch and always has been.

Hello.

I had my kids at 21 and 22(oops), and both pregnancies and deliveries were textbook and very easy. So easy that at one point I gave serious consideration to being a surrogate. Realization of the unavoidable (for me) emotional consequences convinced me that was not a good thing for me to do, although physically, it would have been easy for me.

Emotionally though, I wasn't quite ready to be a parent. Especially not for two so close together. My kids helped raise me. They taught me selflessness, and that being a parent was more important than being liked. But I definitely had some issues, especially with StY. He was intractible, due to undiagnosed at that time ADHD, and I was continually at my wit's end as to how to influence him away from flinging himself off the second floor balcony or poking bobby pins in the light sockets. Repeatedly. It became so wearing that I actually lost it on more than one occasion, and skirted the edge of physical abuse.

I came to my senses when he was about three, hugging me after I'd had a meltdown, patting my back with butterfly hands and telling me, "It's okay, Mommy." I got help.

My being older would have been better. More time between kids (the close interval was not my choice) would have been better. But we dealt with what we'd been given.

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That is (to my mind, and I've talked about this with Jen) one of the great good things about parenting. It forces you to grow.

To quote ita, bullshit. It made *you* grow, David, and that's wonderful. Not all parents experience the same thing. Parenting does *not* force all parents to grow.

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I *do* really resent the idea that wanting a life of one's own is somehow seen as selfish.

Sadly this ethic...is it Puritan I dunno...is so prevalent, it seeps into nearly every choice someone make to their own benefit. It's crazy how quickly someone who creates a life that suits him or herself gets slapped with "Well, that must be nice."

What is it about self agency that is so threatening to other people?

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If you actually had the kid, the selfishness is moot. You'd rise to the occasion.

I think you'd manage to keep them alive, but I don't know if that always translates into being a good parent.

There are a lot of people with kids who I honestly think have made the world a much worse place by breeding. And more that aren't making it any better, just more highly populated.

And then there are people who I see with their kids and man does it all make sense that they are parents and raising kids and it's lovely.

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