McCarthy was not vindicated. To start with people still argue over whethr the Rosenbergs were guilty,. But if they were it has nothing to do with the many many innocent people who were harmed .

Hey Gar -- How's that binary walk lookin'? :)

Can't we go back to talking about Nutty's bras again?

And can you sing "Walk This Way" while you post it?

I have to admit I'm still somewhat startled at the degree to which people are upset by Anathema's actions.

It was connie who first made me realize I was way too angry about Schmoker and needed to calm down. And now I do a feelings check like her and I'm not upset either. In fact, since that day I've failed to become upset over voting, war, and many other controversial issues. Somehow, I no longer need to Doblerize, because connie taught me to Chill.

In fact, since that day I've failed to become upset over voting, war, and many other controversial issues. Somehow, I no longer need to Doblerize, because connie taught me to Chill.

checking various IDs in my wallet. Nope, teacher still not listed. Still blushing.

This post does not have the answers to everyone's concerns, and you might well want to skip it. It's just more therapy from another shellshocked Buffista who's avoiding the news. FWIW, I think telling Buffistas to drop a subject, especially one with as much baggage as this one, is an invitation to exploding Buffistas.

After mieske started making people uncomfortable, there were even people who accused Deena (who was a newbie back then) of being a sock-puppet, for committing the cardinal sin of engaging mieske in a conversation.

Paul, that was me, and I was wrong. But Deena and I got over it, and we get along great now. I agree that things were a little crazy at that time, and that mistakes were made. I made mistakes. I do that sometimes. There's no way to go back and change that, so I'd like to ask for a little forgiveness all around.

FWIW, John, I was personally quite upset by your leaving. We're not close friends, but I like you, and the idea that someone who built the board and has been an important part of the community felt he had to leave as a result of all the mieskie bullshit was end-of-the-worldy to me. As a result of that, and the fact that I always felt sure that m/S/A were the same person, I never felt I could engage him with any comfort. Not saying that those who did and who will miss him are wrong, but I can't relate. Too much negativity had built up by that point, and I couldn't give S/A the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that means I'm small-minded. It's possible. But that's how my mind was working. I couldn't say anything nice, so once the subject was shut down I said nothing at all.

I think the rest, and very possibly what's above, has been talked to death already. I agree with Misha that many of us are on edge on account of a pair of stubborn dictators--I know I am--so I hope people will try not to be hurtful, or to take quick offense. (That reads like my standard rosy-colored glasses sign-off, I know. Ah well.)

A ban from a community of Buffy/Angel fans does not have the same mental weight as a ban from say, the municipal court that can throw your meatspace butt in a jail cell.

But it would, in my mind, seem to indicate that he doesn't really respect us or care about what we think. And that's... not the kind of person you want to have around? I mean, his witty banter in the Movies thread or his clever analysis of the current Buffy season notwithstanding-- he seemed to respect us on a (as I saw it) very basic level. And I don't know why he stuck around after that.

I can only think of religious examples to explain what I mean. (OK, OK, we supposedly are a cult, aren't we?)

For example, I'm not Catholic. I wouldn't really blink if the Pope tapped my shoulder and mentioned I was excommunicated. (OK. I'd blink. Then I'd ask for his autograph, and see if I could sell it on eBay.) But if I were Catholic, or really interested in becoming Catholic, I think I'd care!

Similarly, and in a less probable but slightly more relevant example, if a devotee of the Grand Stale Preztel Temple told me I was blasphemous in their eyes since I was wearing a purple skirt on a Thursday, and I was going to their hell unless I followed these twenty steps to save my soul, I'd brush that aside and keep walking. It's some weird social order trying to impose their arbitrary, insane rules upon me, right? I don't need to care; I don't want anything from them. If I get thrown out of a society I have no interest in... that's pretty pointless isn't it? I never wanted in in the first place.

But if I took a brochure from that GSPT devotee? And started taking Sunday night classes at the Temple? And got really interested in their organization? And wanted to join, and wear the spiky orange headdress of an initiate?

If I kept wearing that damn skirt on Thursdays, I really can't with any reason expect to be able to keep acting cute and surprised when they withhold the headdress from me.

I don't have the kind of responsibility to the Buffistas as I do to a court of law. It's just a social order, the place where I like to belong. But that means they have the right to kick my ass out-- can't throw me into jail, but they can exact punishment within their limited range, in their self-limited terms. IE, the headdress; the Catholic Hell. IE, Buffista posting privileges .

John, Rebecca and anyone who felt the need to discuss m/s/a,

I'm sorry that my asking for it to stop made you feel badly. I was asking for my own selfish sake, because of the history Allyson gave in:

Allyson "Bureaucracy 1: Like Kafka, Only Funnier" Mar 18, 2003 11:54:38 pm EST

I was one of the people in the beginning, who supported that Geo. I thought he was just a slow learner and would catch on eventually. By the end, I was manually installing the rail we needed to run him out of town. He was completely devisive, and Allyson underplayed how bad it got.

The first time mieskie posted, I thought he was Geo. But then his age, location and marital status were all different (not that those things can't be faked), and his maturity level, spelling and grammar were better (not as easy to fake).

The first time he came back as Schmoker, his very first post (in this thread) - I "knew" he was mieskie, because when I'd thought mieskie was Geo, I'd (unintentionally) memorized his style, his phrasing, his opinions, his "voice", while trying to decide if it was Geo in disguise. I take no pride in the fact that I spent so much time thinking about him.

I didn't like my reaction to his antics. I was way too into whether or not m=s. I was morally outraged to a ridiculous degree that "people wouldn't see the truth" and Do Something. It took a gut check (thanks to bitterchick) at the time to even make me consider letting it go and letting the chips fall were they may.

I was angry that John left over it (not at John - at the internet gods), because I didn't want to lose one of our Class Protectors to someone like that again. I thought m/s/a was completely horrid to John here, over the emails. I was doing the dance of "this is so unfair" in my head. All. Day.

Then m/s/a started playing by the rules. And I realized since we never will know who is who, not really, it didn't matter to me. I could just take people by face value, or even better, on a post by post, or topic by topic basis.

I just wanted to stay in that place. And I wanted you all to get to that place, in my time, because dammit - everyone should do what I want, when I want, how I say, wearing the clothes I've picked out for them, sitting up straight and eating their vegetables. That's why I asked that we drop it. But I didn't have the right to ask. I should have, instead, removed myself from the conversation.

Talk all you need to. I'm very sorry contributing members of this community were upset by someone who didn't hold this great community in the regard it deserves, immediately. I still think this is exactly like The Yoko Factor. I've just already memorized my lines in the make-up scene in Primeval and have to wait for it.

I will go back to "that place", will eat chocolate and model myself after Lloyd Dobler.

So you're saying, if DXMachina didn't exist, we would have to invent him?

It just means I have to spend more time with Ed at the F2F. First beer's on me.

Woo hoo! I drink, therefore I am.

What Cindy Said.

Also, I am weirded out that Burrell was right about the yes votes. And a little irritated that we're counting "no preferance". But I am leting it go.

I too, was sure Schmoker was meiske and remained sure about it even as Anathema. But there was this point where I couldn't sustain it any more. I just thought, after he changed to Anathema that I would let it go and just let him be a new person. I never really talked much to him, because a) I was embroiled in democracy and b) I didn't like that I knew he was meiskie.

But I really understand John's righteous anger. It sucks to be the one who is following the rules. I have a very long story involving a theatre that a friend and I started (and ran for about 5 years), where he never followed any rules and everyone loved hime, meanwhile I was following all the rules plus cleaning up messes, and everyone thought I was a right bitch, but I won't tell that story because it is really long and not posting board related. But I got to this point that everytime he got caught in a lie I wanted to jump up and down saying"Don't you see! He's a liar!!!!" Eventually I left that theatre, that I built with my money and time and expertise. That I let him take the credit for directing all of his shows alone when I was always there to back him up, coach his actors and fix things. I left. And that sucked. So John-- I completely and totally understand how you are feeling, but I can't feel like that her, because I can't feel like that again