Everyone deserves courtesy, and here, it's official.

If that weren't true, mieske would never have been suspended in the first place.

You know, here's a thought --

this is the third, that's right, third online community I have seen explode over a small matter of courtesy over the last day and a half.

Given that we'll likely be at war in less than a day, I think it's highly probable that there's a lot of displaced fear and anger and frustration getting played out here and elsewhere.

Think about that, and then, I think, the best thing to do is to Doblerize yourself. Worked for me.

But, in effect, he left to preempt banning.

That's not so. He would've been allowed the option to stay.

But Wolfram's point is valid. I think it's a negative to drag this out, but I'm only on my own clock. People get through the board at their own pace - it's not a chat. Jess's point is also valid - if you need to make your case then go ahead.

I don't get that stuff about Mieskie's "friends", PMM, I really don't.

You're still friends with the guy after he specifically, repeatedly lied to you in public?

What makes this situation so poisonous is that, in a surprisingly literal sense of the phrase, you don't know who your friends are, if they lie to you about who they are.

PMM, I disagree with your idea that this is exactly like, or even similar to, the India-baby-killing situation.

And I'm really *not* personally interested in m/S/A. I want to talk about him as a situation, not as a person; I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about what he did. If I were talking about his own personal, uh, bad dress sense? and unsightly second head growing out of the back of his head? and fondness for canasta, which is obviously a silly game, because it has such a fun-to-say name? ... Then I think m/S/A's friends could feel quite justified in getting het up and upset with me. But I'm *not*. I'm talking about his actions. Which, you know, happened; there's a very limited range of argument that can take place over them. One can say "he didn't mean to let us know A = m". Or one can say "he was dropping hints and winking at us". But one cannot say that he did not reregister under false pretense, or that we did not choose to suspend him in his first tenure here, or that he did not lie.

If I were m/S/A-- if I were Rebecca Lizard, then you kicked me out and I reregistered as Miss Mandible (Barthelme joke) and did exactly the same dance, I would expect someone else-- in fact, I would have expected everyone else, but, you know, that's because it's MY opinion-- to be saying the same things about me that I am saying about m/S/A.

And if John, or anyone else who still liked me, had to read those posts... well, sorry, John, tough shit; I called things directly down upon myself, and if it hurts you emotionally to deal with aftermath of my actions, there's really nothing you can do. You, John, cannot take back for me the things that *I* (me, not John) *did* (past tense-- already happened). It simply doesn't work that way.

PMM, I think drawing parallels between the individual, recorded-history actions of a single person, and a semi- ethnic-slur against an entire country of people, is highly disingenuous.

Huh. We had this. Geo, Karmic, HelSparrow. All the same guy. Would get run out, and come back with a new name, try to fit in, and was far messier about letting everyone know who he was. Also, we had another one. Jono, Sephiroth, Stevie, et al.

He'd come back, ingratiate himself by behaving with some folks. Trouble was, he never made amends with the the people he pissed off, before. And the folks who were clueless about the previous identity would defend him to the death, til they too were bit. And then he'd get run out, come back with a new name, rinse, and repeat.

And we tore each other apart.

He CHANGED!!! Don't you see how he's CHANGED???? What is WRONG with you people? If you were just NICER everything would be PERFECT!

Dude. It's the same kid. In two months, he'll have pissed you off and made you nuts. Aside from that, I've always been nice to you, why are you choosing this pissant who hurt me and never apologized, over me? I've been there for you. And the next time he gets run off, I'll still be here. And you and me? We ain't friends no mo.

You have to give people a CHANCE. He messed up, but look how hard he's trying! How would you feel?

And so on. And then, eventually, the software would get smarter, or someone would complain to his ISP.

And then, when they were gone for some time, things would get back to normal. 'Course, people picked their sides and stuck to them, cliques got split up and reorganized, and the folks who were tired of the fighting moved to different playgrounds.

This is the same thing, with a different ZIP code.

John is pissed that his old pals didnt back him and skin MieskeSchmokerAnathema way back when he had fewer names.

RL is backing John.

Hec wants to go back to porning with Bitches.

Some Folks Are Very Offended.

Other Folks Want Everyone to Shut Up and Talk About Something Nice.

Some Folks Are Holier Than Thou

Some Folks Are annoying Know-It-Alls (that would be me)

And some folks dont give a rats ass and have never looked at this thread.

But this is nothing New! It's just New! here.

It will likely end with some folks stomping off, a whole lot of backchannel, and some folks who aren't any closer to agreeing.

RL is backing John.

(RL has her own mind, and is posting under her own steam. One of the reasons RL is close friends with John is that they have fairly similar minds; and that's maybe why they agree about this; but RL is, although she recognizes all of your points and all of your experience with fandom and its kerfuffles, slightly annoyed at the idea she's just simply in it because John pushed her behind him.)

(RLJS.)

(RL needs to go to bed soon, because continuing in the third person is looking pretty damn seductive.)

OK this post is going to have everything in it I have left to say about mieskie.

• I thought the post that ita made on behalf of the admins was badly worded.
• I also think the decision to keep it quiet was a mistake. We should keep details of the horrible thing he did quiet because it was horrible? So people can be outraged and upset and disappointed in a small uneven trickle rather than all at once?
• The post from the admins told everyone that he had lied to us for months, and then spoke of his "sincere desire" not to cause any more conflict.
• I thought it was bizarre to be talking about the "sincere desires" of a person in the same sentence as making public the fact that he'd repeatedly lied to us. I would have just written "what he says is a sincere desire..."
• Not only did the wording seem to take his part, rather than being impartial -- let me make up my own mind how sincere the guy is please? -- people came here and posted that they were sorry that he had to go.
• I don't get how the "niceness" of Schmoker helps offset the horribleness of Mieskie. To me it makes it worse. Every damn post he made was another nail in the coffin.
• Every chance he had to make things better? He made them worse. Every chance he had to come clean? He told another lie.
• There are two viewpoints on his "hints" -- one is that he is just very very stupid and let them slip by accident; I can't believe that. I believe that he was doing it deliberately to mock and insult and unsettle us. He was doing something fundamentally mean-spirited and hateful and un-Buffista-like. He was doing that at the same time as appearing "nice". That doesn't make you feel sick? It does me.
• Do I believe that common courtesy no longer applies to someone who behaves like this? Damn right I do. He forefeited his right to common courtesy by lying to us repeatedly and insulting us. I have thrown people out of parties at my home in real life for insulting behaviour toward me and my friends, and I'll do it again. I didn't do it physically, but I didn't bother with "common courtesy" either. I said "you've gone over the limit, pal. Get the fuck out of my house".
• This last one is pretty much all just Emotional TMI. It's personal. Skip it if you want. But when the suspicions were being talked about at the end of January, the time I went away? That was because I got the very strong impression there were people who would rather have him around, mieskie-in-disguise or not, than have me here.
  I felt hated, I felt despised, I felt I couldn't be a Buffista any more. People talked about witch-hunts and the McCarthy era.
  I found that incredibly hurtful and insulting and unfair.
  A "witch hunt", ironically, isn't what we call a "witch hunt" if it results in the finding of an actual witch. This sounds childish, but I was right. He was doing what I said he was doing. There were people here who seemed to think I should be ashamed even of making those accusations -- and there still are.
  I'm getting the impression even now that people, rather than saying "oh well John might have gone about it the wrong way, but after all, it turns out he was right" are saying "even if he was right, he shouldn't have brought it up because it's upsetting -- it's better to just unpleasant situations and hope they go away".
  People would rather have Schmoker here than me? How the hell would you feel? I helped build this place, I put my own money and time into it, and I feel that I want to protect it. And those feelings are a source of shame and discomfort and embarassment to you? Maybe you'd better ban me, and invite him back. After all, it seems like you think I'm a troublemaker, and he "seemed like a nice guy..." But yet again, like Spike explaining Ben/Glory for the fourth or fifth time, I have to point this out. It's the seeming like a nice guy that gives me the creeps. Because he wasn't. He was Mieskie, who was banned to widespread acclaim, from the same people who are telling me to keep my feelings to myself now. I don't get it. I really, really don't get it.

the idea she's just simply in it because John pushed her behind him

I'm going to take a moment and check my reading comprehension. Where does "RL is backing John" imply that RL is doing with anything less than her own informed volition?

I don't get that stuff about Mieskie's "friends", PMM, I really don't.

John, from my POV, what upset me was not your opinion of Mieskie but your opinion that something was clearly wrong with those us of who dont' see the situation as you do.

RL, I'll take you at your word that it's not the current specific situation upsetting you but a desire to discuss this stuff on a more general level. In that case, from my perspective it's pretty clear that there's no way to do that right now without dragging in a lot of other stuff and it'll be divisive and counterproductive. YMMV.

And if it wasn't clear from my earlier posts, I do believe that he earned his suspension and banning and I don't believe he should be reinstated. I just don't have the personal animosity that some of us do, and I do believe that it's unfortunate things developed the way they did.

Edited to add:

If this also wasn't clear, now or back in January, never, ever did I feel that mieskie belonged here more than you did, or that it was anything approaching a fair trade him for you. If anything I said came off this way, then I sincerely apologize. I was delighted to see your return, and nothing going on here changes that. So again, I'm very, very sorry.