First off, I'd love to see all of us, old and new, keep this comment from Suela foremost in our minds for a while:

The best we can do is give our fellow posters the benefit of the doubt, bite our tongues when we react in anger, and try to be as civil and courteous as possible, understanding the limits of the medium we're working in.

Generally, this is pretty much how we function around here normally, without even thinking about it. But I think over the last few months it's gotten away from us a little bit, and that upsets me. The inflood of new registrations shocked a bunch of us, and it feels like we're still reacting to that in a way that isn't productive.

So, sadly, I can see where MM's coming from. I don't want to, and I still don't believe that that really describes us as a community. But I can see where it appears that way, and I wish that weren't so.

Comfort levels differ - one of the reasons that old-timers seem to get away with stuff is that when you know someone, you know how they mean things, and you don't take offense where none is intended. If you do, you say so, and generally it irons itself out. So an off-colour remark or insult goes by without comment. But if I'm new here, do I know why it's ok for someone else but not for me? Say I've been watching the board and trying to figure it out, and it looks to me like this kind of talk is ok here, so I just jump in. What happens then? For whatever reason, we're not dealing with this stuff very well right now.

FTR, on the interaction that Schmoker posted about over here, I don't think he was wrong. He made a potentially annoying post but the response from at least one poster was way outside the bounds. I was fairly behind in the thread when I came across it, but I was very sorry that there wasn't more reaction from others on that, because it was far more deserving of a scolding, IMO.

Right now, we're mostly upsetting ourselves, though - we are feeding the energy creatures, and we're getting all worked up about it besides.

I'm not going to step in and say, "whoah there, folks!" because I don't really know whether this is in violation of the standards or not.

Consuela, it's not a violation. I'm trying to think of what standards Bitches have, and I'm not coming up with any that say you can't ask what the heck is going on. If it's backrubs, we'll invite you. If it's a flamewar--which I've never seen over there--someone will advise you to duck.

And the problem we're having is that unless you pay close attention, the difference isn't obvious.

I'm with you on this. I mean, it's not that hard for me to tell what's going on and when someone might be pushing things. But when we say to newbies "read, listen, learn" and then jump on missteps, we might consider that the fact that there are RL (or backchannel) relationships going on that make some of this stuff ok might not be all that clear to someone who just found this place.

(I'll offer up the last 50 or so Natter posts as an example.)

The couple of times that these problems have gotten to the point that we've banned or discussed banning, it was new people offending but then refusing to accept that someone taking offense was a valid reaction. But in terms of the generally unwelcoming environment that some people are perceiving, maybe this is an element to consider.

Yeah, well, it was a hypothetical. My point stands, though: we're all under an obligation to enforce our community standards, if they're as important as we all seem to think they are; the problem is that context is everything, and what's appropriate between two Buffistas in thread A may be complete out of line in thread D.

You know what distinction's important here? What's okay here and what's okay to say to any individual. It might be okay to call someone an insane fucko on this board, but if you're talking to Betsy, you'd damned well better know something specific about you and Betsy. There's no hypocrisy there, no obscure community standards -- that's about relating to specific people.

But much more importantly than that, if I've called anyone anything in the past, and they are offended by it tomorrow, it's polite of me to go "Oh. Umm. Sorry? Sorry." Not "What a double standard! I called you that yesterday!"

IRL with old friends, I say things are do things that offend. I apologises. In new groups, I say very little , unless we are talking about something realtively impersonal ( and i have a passion for) , like books. So I rarley offend people I have just met.

I am not a good aplogiser (and a piss poor speller). I like to make excuses and explain. Ask DH. But I am tryingto learn. And it is easier on line where I can look at my posts and say --oops that isn't what I am trying to do or say here.

Anyway, because of that - I don't tend to call people on their behavior if I have just met them. I watch or listen and decide if it is a pattern, I don't like the person, or they just get on my nerves. If it is someone I like -- i might eventually say something. If it someone well liked on the board -- It might take me longer. Depends how personally I am invovled. In meatspace I'm quicker --cause things can get physical faster.

Anyway, I do see some discussions get hotter because person a doesn't want to listen. And then person b stops listening and Then C jumps in. At the moment it seems to be happening to new members of the board. But, it happened a bunch with old members durring last seasons Buffy. I suspect we are having pains now caused by 1) growth, 2) a bad experience, 3) some confusion about what will happen if there are no ME shows.

I think that we will get over this hump and do just fine.

edited : because even one word can make things clearer

Just FTR, I'm not saying there's no difference between some of the back-and-forth between folks here and a newbie jumping in and saying the same thing. Just that, when it happens, we might give the intent a little more benefit of the doubt when we call someone on the actual post.

But much more importantly than that, if I've called anyone anything in the past, and they are offended by it tomorrow, it's polite of me to go "Oh. Umm. Sorry? Sorry." Not "What a double standard! I called you that yesterday!"

Hell yes. And it's that attitude that needs stomping, more than someone misjudging their tone or making an unfortunate remark.

[Or, more relevant to our situation - "What a double standard! So-and-so called you that just the other day, so how the hell can you pretend to be offended now?"]

I'm with you on this. I mean, it's not that hard for me to tell what's going on and when someone might be pushing things. But when we say to newbies "read, listen, learn" and then jump on missteps, we might consider that the fact that there are RL (or backchannel) relationships going on that make some of this stuff ok might not be all that clear to someone who just found this place.

Why wouldn't it be clear to Joe Newbie that some people know each other better than Joe Newbie knows anyone? Why wouldn't it be clear that friends can tease each other over subjects and in ways that strangers can't? I'm having a hard time wording this, but I think most people do or should comprehend that when they're new at a board, of course some of the people at a board are already friends (of varying degrees of intimacy) with one another.

I am worried that some of this discussion isn't growing out of a real problem, but rather that it's growing out of the seeds of malcontent that mieskie sowed; when he was called on things, I didn't so much feel that he really did not know the difference between one of us blathering about a secret crush and him making lewd comments about a teenagers breasts. I think he was rules lawyering, so that he could continue making lewd comments about a teenager's breasts or any other kind of offensive attack. That doesn't mean I think anyone should be bounced (or even always warned) the first time s/he makes a social gaffe. But please remember even if people are new here, they're not (hopefully) new to living among the human race. Of course you can say things to someone you've known a long time that a relative stranger could not say. I think a newbie should go to any community equipped with that basic bit of social knowledge.

I'll add two things. Newbies - I'm also pretty new here. I have no props earned. Also, I think we've gotten mostly splendid newbies, with only one difficulty and he was suspended.

I also have no grammar.