And the problem we're having is that unless you pay close attention, the difference isn't obvious.

Really? It is to me. As in, I know who can call me a ho, and who can't. And if someone who can't, does, I'm going to say something about it. I've been trying to be more conscientious about it, but if I think it can make a difference in how I'm treated, damned skippy, I'll mention it.

There might be a distinction because I don't think I need any protection -- if someone calls me a ho and I don't say anything, no one else need say anything on my behalf.

But I know it when I see it, and I got my back.

My take on it has been that if someone's not being called on their shit it's because the person targeted (say, an INVISIBLE FUCKO) doesn't mind, or can't be arsed. I still need to develop a relationship with this fucko before I can get all caps on their ass, though.

That's just cause we warned them about you before you got here.

In backchannel.

imagining ita spinning around in circles very fast, trying to get her own back

Oh you can talk about me all you want on backchannels.

I'm all about the attention. Especially if I don't have to do any work to get it.

Really? It is to me.

Yes, but you're never afraid to speak out for yourself either.

Case in point: I don't read Bitches, don't have time. If I stop by on an ordinary day I have no idea whether I'm reading a flamewar or a friendly back-scratching session.

I'm not going to step in and say, "whoah there, folks!" because I don't really know whether this is in violation of the standards or not.

Ah, I've wandered far from my original point, which was "let's not work ourselves into a tizzy."

We're NOT being inundated with trolls. We're just as likely to have the board blow up because of disagreements between veterans as by having some newbies show up who didn't read the FAQ.

First off, I'd love to see all of us, old and new, keep this comment from Suela foremost in our minds for a while:

The best we can do is give our fellow posters the benefit of the doubt, bite our tongues when we react in anger, and try to be as civil and courteous as possible, understanding the limits of the medium we're working in.

Generally, this is pretty much how we function around here normally, without even thinking about it. But I think over the last few months it's gotten away from us a little bit, and that upsets me. The inflood of new registrations shocked a bunch of us, and it feels like we're still reacting to that in a way that isn't productive.

So, sadly, I can see where MM's coming from. I don't want to, and I still don't believe that that really describes us as a community. But I can see where it appears that way, and I wish that weren't so.

Comfort levels differ - one of the reasons that old-timers seem to get away with stuff is that when you know someone, you know how they mean things, and you don't take offense where none is intended. If you do, you say so, and generally it irons itself out. So an off-colour remark or insult goes by without comment. But if I'm new here, do I know why it's ok for someone else but not for me? Say I've been watching the board and trying to figure it out, and it looks to me like this kind of talk is ok here, so I just jump in. What happens then? For whatever reason, we're not dealing with this stuff very well right now.

FTR, on the interaction that Schmoker posted about over here, I don't think he was wrong. He made a potentially annoying post but the response from at least one poster was way outside the bounds. I was fairly behind in the thread when I came across it, but I was very sorry that there wasn't more reaction from others on that, because it was far more deserving of a scolding, IMO.

Right now, we're mostly upsetting ourselves, though - we are feeding the energy creatures, and we're getting all worked up about it besides.

I'm not going to step in and say, "whoah there, folks!" because I don't really know whether this is in violation of the standards or not.

Consuela, it's not a violation. I'm trying to think of what standards Bitches have, and I'm not coming up with any that say you can't ask what the heck is going on. If it's backrubs, we'll invite you. If it's a flamewar--which I've never seen over there--someone will advise you to duck.

And the problem we're having is that unless you pay close attention, the difference isn't obvious.

I'm with you on this. I mean, it's not that hard for me to tell what's going on and when someone might be pushing things. But when we say to newbies "read, listen, learn" and then jump on missteps, we might consider that the fact that there are RL (or backchannel) relationships going on that make some of this stuff ok might not be all that clear to someone who just found this place.

(I'll offer up the last 50 or so Natter posts as an example.)

The couple of times that these problems have gotten to the point that we've banned or discussed banning, it was new people offending but then refusing to accept that someone taking offense was a valid reaction. But in terms of the generally unwelcoming environment that some people are perceiving, maybe this is an element to consider.

Yeah, well, it was a hypothetical. My point stands, though: we're all under an obligation to enforce our community standards, if they're as important as we all seem to think they are; the problem is that context is everything, and what's appropriate between two Buffistas in thread A may be complete out of line in thread D.

You know what distinction's important here? What's okay here and what's okay to say to any individual. It might be okay to call someone an insane fucko on this board, but if you're talking to Betsy, you'd damned well better know something specific about you and Betsy. There's no hypocrisy there, no obscure community standards -- that's about relating to specific people.

But much more importantly than that, if I've called anyone anything in the past, and they are offended by it tomorrow, it's polite of me to go "Oh. Umm. Sorry? Sorry." Not "What a double standard! I called you that yesterday!"