With Elena. There wasn't something wrong with the comments, it was as John pointed out, the passive aggressive comebacks. Always having the last word.

Also calling me a liar. That was annoying.

I also disagree with a characterization that we're not nice to newbies. I will admit there's a condescending "we know offensiveness when we see it" but I also think that's true, and old-timers are a helluva lot more likely to know it when they see it, and if you can't take a poster telling you he's offended, you don't belong here.

connie, for me it's not so much the contents of his posts (though 'panties in a twist' struck me as very dismissive and offensive'), it's how he reacts when

Wow. If this really how you feel, it's distressing. I hope we're better than that.

I have been really hesitant to speak up on this, since I still feel like a newbie, because I was one of the earlier people who said directly to Schmoker that he offended me, and because I don't think I handled it as well as I could have. I have to say though I argree with Elena, and with Dana. One of the reasons I like it here is how civil it usually is, and I got the feeling that Schmoker wasn't here to listen to others and be a part of a community, but to tell everybody his ideas about the ME shows. To my mind, there is a big difference between the oldtimers snark and what he was doing.

You have the right to be offended. He had the right to feel jumped on. Everybody's got rights. How things work out is up to the community and the individuals. I'm not saying anyone was flat out wrong. But I couldn't sit here any longer without putting my opinion on record, not when it was knotting my stomach the way it was. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, I'm used to it. ;) But it's said, that that's sufficient for my purposes.

But I couldn't sit here any longer without putting my opinion on record, not when it was knotting my stomach the way it was.

Argh. I don't want your stomach to be in knots. I'm still distressed.

"panties in a bunch" is a useful phrase -- I ran across it reading the TTT thread after this started. I searched for it and found DXMachina "Firefly 1: Josssssss Innnnn Spaaaaaaaaaaace! [closed]" Oct 4, 2002 8:19:49 pm EDT saying "Whoa, somebody's got her panties in a bunch," but it turned out he was watch-and-posting to Firefly. Speaking of word-frequency counts, we have mieskie "Firefly 2: You Can't Take the Sky From Me." Dec 23, 2002 10:12:20 pm EST:

I didn't insult anyone here, because no one here doesn't like the show. But if you want to get your panties in a bunch because I blast someone you don't even know, so be it.

Don't be distressed on my account, Dana, please. My socio-poltical buttons are purely my own. I also hate the idea of other folks' stomachs being knotted up by a poster's words. Always speak up for your own feelings, no one else is going to do it for you. That's all I was doing. It's a philosophical point for me, I feel the universe is disappointed in me if I don't at least throw one little pebble into the pond if I see an alternate viewpoint. Don't worry, I don't defend everybody.

I laughed at his "panties in a twist" remark and was prepared to watch a bit of classic interpersonal snark.

connie, my problem with that line was not that I didn't know him; it was the line. If-- if-- if FayJay, or Hec (to use as example someone slightly more naturally caustic in wit, but still very beloved by me) used the same sentences, directed at me, as Schmoker did to Shawn, I'd have a moment of stunned, confused silence and then complain. To me (and this is taking into account the context of the rest of his post and his entire conversation with Shawn), that's not the clever, fun interpersonal snark between friends, it's a condescending insult. And I know I may have things in my personal history that make me react to perceivedly condescending things very strongly; so I footnoted my post saying exactly that.

But the problem, for me, lies in that he didn't then say to Shawn or anybody else, Oh, I'm sorry I made you upset, for me those words aren't terribly insulting, they're only funny; and I didn't mean to offend you like that. (In fact, quite the opposite seems to have happened.) To me, that means that he's not interested in maintaining happy relationships with other Buffistas. I am not saying that any kow-towing to anyone is necessary at all; I'm saying that I believe it's important that you establish through difference of opinion or difference of conversational styles respect or at least tolerance between posters, and sometimes that means apologizing when you hurt people when you didn't think you were. If I swung around and accidentally knocked my hand into my sister's nose, and she started to cry because I hurt her, it doesn't make it any less real that I hurt her, just because I didn't mean to at all, or because I think she's maybe being over-sensitive to a tiny little bop on the nose. Hurt is subjective; and in her mind, it is a reality that she was hurt. And because I have some interest in remaining a part of the family we both belong to, and I do like my sister, I apologize to her. (And I scoop her into my arms and tell her it's all right, shh, I love you, but you don't have to go that far.) If I thought so low of her I didn't care about keeping her liking me, or keeping myself in the family (say I wanted to stay in the family, but didn't like that particular sister very much-- I could just avoid her, or bitch about her backchannel [this is where the analogy falls apart], but I would still have to apologize to her [no matter how coolly-polite-ly or "I'm so sorry you feel I hurt you" I must be], because other people in the family like her; and plus the family as a whole intrinsically depends on its members not trying to kill one another. That's sort of an integral thing) then I could simply leave the family; as it has no intrinsic worth for me to be there. But I don't want to leave, I like being in the family and I want to stay, so I grasp the points of basic politeness already and apologize to the hurt sister.

If I'm making myself clear with this.

[edited for one missing word]

I'm very bad at conflict. This is why I tend to stay out of most policy discussions, and why I'm an advocate for the MARCIE filter.

Liz, your reaction is as valid as anyone's. But, forgive me, not more valid. A number of reactions matched yours, though, which is why I didn't say anything while everything was blowing up. The process worked. As much as many people regret it, we're part of a larger world now and more and more of the hoi polloi will be coming in. I thought a couple of times of sending a private email saying, "Look, they're not getting it, if there's a sincere, non-snarky apology in your repertoire, best bring it out."

I am not accusing anyone of overreacting, I hope that's clear. I just wanted to put in one voice for the contrarian point of view. I fear a fortress mentality here above all things. This isn't our safe little world anymore. Many good folks have shown up. Some of the regulars who show up may never fit in completely well. It's a good thing.

BTW, did we decide on the title for the next Bitches thread?