"panties in a bunch" is a useful phrase -- I ran across it reading the TTT thread after this started. I searched for it and found DXMachina "Firefly 1: Josssssss Innnnn Spaaaaaaaaaaace! [closed]" Oct 4, 2002 8:19:49 pm EDT saying "Whoa, somebody's got her panties in a bunch," but it turned out he was watch-and-posting to Firefly. Speaking of word-frequency counts, we have mieskie "Firefly 2: You Can't Take the Sky From Me." Dec 23, 2002 10:12:20 pm EST:

I didn't insult anyone here, because no one here doesn't like the show. But if you want to get your panties in a bunch because I blast someone you don't even know, so be it.

Don't be distressed on my account, Dana, please. My socio-poltical buttons are purely my own. I also hate the idea of other folks' stomachs being knotted up by a poster's words. Always speak up for your own feelings, no one else is going to do it for you. That's all I was doing. It's a philosophical point for me, I feel the universe is disappointed in me if I don't at least throw one little pebble into the pond if I see an alternate viewpoint. Don't worry, I don't defend everybody.

I laughed at his "panties in a twist" remark and was prepared to watch a bit of classic interpersonal snark.

connie, my problem with that line was not that I didn't know him; it was the line. If-- if-- if FayJay, or Hec (to use as example someone slightly more naturally caustic in wit, but still very beloved by me) used the same sentences, directed at me, as Schmoker did to Shawn, I'd have a moment of stunned, confused silence and then complain. To me (and this is taking into account the context of the rest of his post and his entire conversation with Shawn), that's not the clever, fun interpersonal snark between friends, it's a condescending insult. And I know I may have things in my personal history that make me react to perceivedly condescending things very strongly; so I footnoted my post saying exactly that.

But the problem, for me, lies in that he didn't then say to Shawn or anybody else, Oh, I'm sorry I made you upset, for me those words aren't terribly insulting, they're only funny; and I didn't mean to offend you like that. (In fact, quite the opposite seems to have happened.) To me, that means that he's not interested in maintaining happy relationships with other Buffistas. I am not saying that any kow-towing to anyone is necessary at all; I'm saying that I believe it's important that you establish through difference of opinion or difference of conversational styles respect or at least tolerance between posters, and sometimes that means apologizing when you hurt people when you didn't think you were. If I swung around and accidentally knocked my hand into my sister's nose, and she started to cry because I hurt her, it doesn't make it any less real that I hurt her, just because I didn't mean to at all, or because I think she's maybe being over-sensitive to a tiny little bop on the nose. Hurt is subjective; and in her mind, it is a reality that she was hurt. And because I have some interest in remaining a part of the family we both belong to, and I do like my sister, I apologize to her. (And I scoop her into my arms and tell her it's all right, shh, I love you, but you don't have to go that far.) If I thought so low of her I didn't care about keeping her liking me, or keeping myself in the family (say I wanted to stay in the family, but didn't like that particular sister very much-- I could just avoid her, or bitch about her backchannel [this is where the analogy falls apart], but I would still have to apologize to her [no matter how coolly-polite-ly or "I'm so sorry you feel I hurt you" I must be], because other people in the family like her; and plus the family as a whole intrinsically depends on its members not trying to kill one another. That's sort of an integral thing) then I could simply leave the family; as it has no intrinsic worth for me to be there. But I don't want to leave, I like being in the family and I want to stay, so I grasp the points of basic politeness already and apologize to the hurt sister.

If I'm making myself clear with this.

[edited for one missing word]

I'm very bad at conflict. This is why I tend to stay out of most policy discussions, and why I'm an advocate for the MARCIE filter.

Liz, your reaction is as valid as anyone's. But, forgive me, not more valid. A number of reactions matched yours, though, which is why I didn't say anything while everything was blowing up. The process worked. As much as many people regret it, we're part of a larger world now and more and more of the hoi polloi will be coming in. I thought a couple of times of sending a private email saying, "Look, they're not getting it, if there's a sincere, non-snarky apology in your repertoire, best bring it out."

I am not accusing anyone of overreacting, I hope that's clear. I just wanted to put in one voice for the contrarian point of view. I fear a fortress mentality here above all things. This isn't our safe little world anymore. Many good folks have shown up. Some of the regulars who show up may never fit in completely well. It's a good thing.

BTW, did we decide on the title for the next Bitches thread?

It was down to two. We should take it to Bitches and check. There are, what, four of us there? Should make the decision easy.

And the Deep Of The Night Thread Namers ride again!

I'm all for being an elitist prick. That's just me, though. I like Kat's theory of community stock.

Veteran Buffistas have earned their status by being respectful, funny, thoughtful, kickass, one post at a time, over a lot of time. It's how you introduce yourself, how you make friends.

I feel like veterans have earned a higher degree of respect than the ordinary respect we hand out at the front door to anyone who walks in and says, "yo, hi, I'm a newbie, and these are my thoughts on the current discussion."

I didn't owe Schmoker the same respect and benefit of the doubt that I owe ita, who has shared far more razor sharp jabs with Shawn than the twisted panties comment. I have background knowledge that ita and Shawn go way back, and genuinely like each other, they are friends.

Schmoker did not establish that, didn't even know that Shawn isn't male.

Coming into a new community means being on your best behavior, being polite, getting to know people, earning your stock. Have to earn it.

Liz, your reaction is as valid as anyone's. But, forgive me, not more valid.

Oh, god, no, I'd never meant to say that! I'm very upset I came across that way to you. This is my Buffista opinion on what is happening. That is all. I have no delusions that my word does, or should, carry huge weight. (I thought I'd laced my speeches with enough datives of subjectivity, as it were, the "seems to me" and "I believe that", that that was clear. Oh, oh dear.) If my repetitive yammering about what I think makes me appear to believe I've got any sort of greater authority than anybody else, *please* shut me up. As I shall.

BTW, did we decide on the title for the next Bitches thread?

I don't think there was any conclusivity. (Look at that word! I made it up.)