because this is heading thread-for-everythingwards

Ayup. And then the only thing we’ll have to talk about in Natter is what we ate for breakfast today.

I'm against thread proliferation, not just ideologically, but experientially. I have no problem with the fact that I can't and won't *ever* keep up with Natter. Because most of it is just chit chat. But occasionally wonderful conversations crop up. If I have to go seek them out in 9 different threads, I'll never see them. Subscribing to 20 threads just seems like a royal a pain in the ass to me. I already subscribe to threads that I don't actually read very often. I don't need more.

Hmmm. "The guy you support eats dead baby harp seals for breakfast! But it's no reflection on YOU! Honest"

Caroma, can you *honestly* say this is an accurate characterization of Susan’s political stance? Or Gar's? I can’t. So exactly *who* is it that you are arguing with here?

I’m sorry I’m being bratty. All I really mean is, I think that there is a tendency to mischaracterize the tone of other people’s politics, and that it leads to hurt feelings on all sides.

OTOH, I really, really want to talk politics, and it's hard to find political discussion anywhere else online that isn't completely overrun by trolls, so it's kinda frustrating to feel like it's a forbidden topic.

I don’t think that politics are a forbidden topic in Natter. I admit I am one of the people who runs away as soon as people start getting aggro over politics, but I don’t think that politics should be avoided in Natter. I just think that nastiness should be avoided when talking politics.

I do believe it's possible to discuss politics politely, as I have on many occasions and will likely continue to do in the future.

I agree with Jen. I've seen it done. I've done it myself. As a teacher, I have to. If a student comes to my office & in the course of discussing a paper notes that he worked on the Bush campaign, it absolutely CANNOT color my comments. I'm still there to help him make the paper the best it can be, and that doesn't mean it needs to be liberal in its ideology.

Seriously, I think the mix of hothouse flowers and spewing volcanoes temper each other, nicely.

Yes, and this is why I think that moving touchy subjects to their own thread is a very bad idea. We've discussed politics and religion here, and when things get toasty, someone usually Doblerizes the disputants, or things die down on their own. If the volatile types know that the sensitive types are reading, then they'll be more likely to think before posting.

Also, I generally find politics boring, so I have a tendency to skim posts that are highly political in content.

The argument that I think is more cogent is that we came together over a TV show, and that discussing movies and books and music is a logical outgrowth of discussing television (and Natter is a logical outgrowth of talking with people everyday), whereas politics or cooking-specific threads don't have that connection.

Very much agreed. This is the only place I know of in cyber or meat space where I can have intelligent discussions about the arts without feeling like I'm dealing with the Highly Exclusive Club of Pretentious People Who Wouldn't Know a Joke If It Bit Them on the Ass and Don't Know How to Appreciate Movies Where Things Get Blowed Up Real Good.

So, I vote for the Assholes Thread, where we Assholes can be Assholes to each other, with the understanding that no hothouse flowers will cry and stomp off and say, "I'm leaving forever!" So that people will collectively say, "No, please don't go, we're begging you to stay, and we're sorry we were so passionate. Here, have some white bread."

So Allyson - although (and I agree) you don't want to shit where you eat - you'd like a half-bath near the kitchen?

I know Allyson was only kidding, but I certainly would belong at an assholes thread at times. But there's always the rest of the web. I would worry that it would bleed into the rest of the board though, as has been said. I think it happened at our friend's board. Besides, although I can be an asshole, I don't want to think of the Buffistas as assholes. This place has been a wonderful refuge.

Asshole thread kidding aside, I think I'll abstain from the rest of the political thread discussion. In theory, I would like it to happen, but I know in practice, that the words of Plei, Consuela and billytea are probably pratically prophetic.

I hope people realize I'm kidding about J---a R-----s. Well, at least a little. t goes red-eyed for a second, shifts back to regular milky-blue

Phoenix is never going to be all things to all people, period. I don't mind not having a movie thread, for instance. I talk movies in Natter (or wherever else it crops up), or I talk it on WX. I'm good with that. If I have a question for someone's specialty, I send them an e-mail. If a huge discussion of something I find intensely boring crops up in Natter or elsewhere, I skip it.

And logical outgrowths? We're way past that now. Music isn't more or less logical than Movies or Politics or Morris Dancing. Everything past Buffy/Angel/Firefly is arbitrary.

The more we bifurcate, the bigger we get, the more people will "Oh, I just can't go in there ... I don't have the time" and "Oh, I never leave here ... I don't have the time", and it will become a very different place.

A worse place? I dunno. But different. And one I resist.

OK, then my question is: Does anyone know of a political forum, liberal-leaning or otherwise, where one can get in some actual discussion and venting? i.e., one that hasn't been taken over by longwinded opinionated trolls who never engage in actual discussion but just recycle the same harangues over and over again?

Could try guardianunlimited.co.uk? Although you may find it big and ranty - my time there is/was mostly in the Film & TV area, with ocassional forays over to booksunlimited.

No movie thread then? Fair enough.

Thanks, FayJay--I read the Guardian online almost daily, but haven't tried out their forums yet. I'll give it a look-see.

This is a weird post to write, so I'll start with the easy stuff:

1. ITA agree with both Burrell and msbelle about thread proliferation. So I won't repeat, except to say, "What they said."

And logical outgrowths? We're way past that now. Music isn't more or less logical than Movies or Politics or Morris Dancing. Everything past Buffy/Angel/Firefly is arbitrary.

Absolutely! Either we just discuss ME shows, or most things are fair game. Lyra, I don't see how music is any more or less a logical outgrowth than basketweaving. Because to say it is, is to make a value judgment on what is entertaining. Sure, music is entertaining. But so is nattering with friends, and eating, and alcohol and a whole bunch of other stuff. As ita said, it is arbitrary.

The more we bifurcate, the bigger we get, the more people will "Oh, I just can't go in there ... I don't have the time" and "Oh, I never leave here ... I don't have the time", and it will become a very different place.

Again with the totally AGREE here.

now, the weird part, I do spend most of my reading time in Natter or in show threads when there are new episodes being shown. In a strange way, I have this emotional reaction to people saying, "OH! Too much Natter! I can't be there! I don't grok natter! I can't deal." Each new thread feels like a rejection of natter to me, which is weird. It's almost as if saying, "OH! I only want this part of the conversation and I want it conveniently packaged for me somewhere else."

Obviously these are my issues.

To build on Jim's Natter as a pub metaphor. Sure it's a pub. And sometimes it's really noisy. But often it isn't. And just as when I see my friends at a bar, when I walk in, I don't make them go back over everything else they've said all evening. Sure I miss out on some great stuff in natter. But I miss out on great stuff with those bar conversations too.

Each balkanizing sub interest thread (except for the West Coast Watch-N-Post --- just kidding) is almost a rejection of the community at large to me. It's like saying, "Nope. Forget it. I don't want to deal with your CRAP, but I would like to hear about only this."

Feh.

So, I vote for the Assholes Thread, where we Assholes can be Assholes to each other, with the understanding that no hothouse flowers will cry and stomp off and say, "I'm leaving forever!" So that people will collectively say, "No, please don't go, we're begging you to stay, and we're sorry we were so passionate. Here, have some white bread."

Actually, I'm all for this. No surprise there, I guess.

But the Assholes thread should be name Brown Wrapper.