I hope people realize I'm kidding about J---a R-----s. Well, at least a little. t goes red-eyed for a second, shifts back to regular milky-blue

Phoenix is never going to be all things to all people, period. I don't mind not having a movie thread, for instance. I talk movies in Natter (or wherever else it crops up), or I talk it on WX. I'm good with that. If I have a question for someone's specialty, I send them an e-mail. If a huge discussion of something I find intensely boring crops up in Natter or elsewhere, I skip it.

And logical outgrowths? We're way past that now. Music isn't more or less logical than Movies or Politics or Morris Dancing. Everything past Buffy/Angel/Firefly is arbitrary.

The more we bifurcate, the bigger we get, the more people will "Oh, I just can't go in there ... I don't have the time" and "Oh, I never leave here ... I don't have the time", and it will become a very different place.

A worse place? I dunno. But different. And one I resist.

OK, then my question is: Does anyone know of a political forum, liberal-leaning or otherwise, where one can get in some actual discussion and venting? i.e., one that hasn't been taken over by longwinded opinionated trolls who never engage in actual discussion but just recycle the same harangues over and over again?

Could try guardianunlimited.co.uk? Although you may find it big and ranty - my time there is/was mostly in the Film & TV area, with ocassional forays over to booksunlimited.

No movie thread then? Fair enough.

Thanks, FayJay--I read the Guardian online almost daily, but haven't tried out their forums yet. I'll give it a look-see.

This is a weird post to write, so I'll start with the easy stuff:

1. ITA agree with both Burrell and msbelle about thread proliferation. So I won't repeat, except to say, "What they said."

And logical outgrowths? We're way past that now. Music isn't more or less logical than Movies or Politics or Morris Dancing. Everything past Buffy/Angel/Firefly is arbitrary.

Absolutely! Either we just discuss ME shows, or most things are fair game. Lyra, I don't see how music is any more or less a logical outgrowth than basketweaving. Because to say it is, is to make a value judgment on what is entertaining. Sure, music is entertaining. But so is nattering with friends, and eating, and alcohol and a whole bunch of other stuff. As ita said, it is arbitrary.

The more we bifurcate, the bigger we get, the more people will "Oh, I just can't go in there ... I don't have the time" and "Oh, I never leave here ... I don't have the time", and it will become a very different place.

Again with the totally AGREE here.

now, the weird part, I do spend most of my reading time in Natter or in show threads when there are new episodes being shown. In a strange way, I have this emotional reaction to people saying, "OH! Too much Natter! I can't be there! I don't grok natter! I can't deal." Each new thread feels like a rejection of natter to me, which is weird. It's almost as if saying, "OH! I only want this part of the conversation and I want it conveniently packaged for me somewhere else."

Obviously these are my issues.

To build on Jim's Natter as a pub metaphor. Sure it's a pub. And sometimes it's really noisy. But often it isn't. And just as when I see my friends at a bar, when I walk in, I don't make them go back over everything else they've said all evening. Sure I miss out on some great stuff in natter. But I miss out on great stuff with those bar conversations too.

Each balkanizing sub interest thread (except for the West Coast Watch-N-Post --- just kidding) is almost a rejection of the community at large to me. It's like saying, "Nope. Forget it. I don't want to deal with your CRAP, but I would like to hear about only this."

Feh.

So, I vote for the Assholes Thread, where we Assholes can be Assholes to each other, with the understanding that no hothouse flowers will cry and stomp off and say, "I'm leaving forever!" So that people will collectively say, "No, please don't go, we're begging you to stay, and we're sorry we were so passionate. Here, have some white bread."

Actually, I'm all for this. No surprise there, I guess.

But the Assholes thread should be name Brown Wrapper.

My thoughts on thread proliferation. I view this place as a social gathering with Natter being the main room where all topics are discussed in a polite sociable manner. We talk about politics, religion, cooking, and each other’s life events. The show discussions are in different rooms so that the unspoiled and viewing delayed participants can be safe from inadvertent spoilage. The in-depth discussions on literature, music and so forth are groups that have wandered off to the patio to talk amongst themselves.

I’m only subscribed to half of the center column threads, so in effect missing half the party. In those threads I have to skip madly to keep up. I have a wide variety of interests so I like everything being discussed in Natter. I fear if too many groups wander off to the patio to talk amongst themselves there will be no one left at the party.

I have many friends and loved ones with vastly opposing views from mine and somehow we can discuss sex, politics, and religion without ever shouting or fighting. I don’t get why this should be a problem.

An awful lot of words to just say I would like to keep the thread growth to a minimum.

Brown Wrapper - snerk

"OH! Too much Natter! I can't be there! I don't grok natter! I can't deal." Each new thread feels like a rejection of natter to me, which is weird. It's almost as if saying, "OH! I only want this part of the conversation and I want it conveniently packaged for me somewhere else."

Oh, God. That's awful.

I don't keep up with Natter because it goes too fast for me to keep up with. So it's nice to drop in sometimes, and I know that it's full of cool and interesting people, but there's no way in hell that I can read all the posts that have happened since last I posted - so I'm generally conscious that I'm bouncing in rudely and interrupting, and that somebody may very well have just announced that such-and-such a trauma happened to them this morning and I've missed it because I only went back 20 posts. But this is my issue, and it's why I don't get into Natter very often. Not out of a rejection of the people in Natter, but out of a consciousness that I'm not contributing fully and am effectively interrupting.

wrt the Music thread - it seems fair enough to me, since there are people wanting it (and music is showcased in the shows, come to think of it, although I know that's reaching) and I don't see it as less reasonable than Literary. (Although it isn't a thread I'd be using much myself.)But I do take your point about feeling that there are too many threads.

A thread about Movies I would like, but not at the expense of anyone else's comfort here. Heck, if I need to talk movies, I can get my arse over to Filmunlimited without needing to undermine the Buffista atmosphere.

So if the Movies thing is even still under consideration, let me retract my 'Yes' - my attraction to the idea is, I think, not so strong as the discomfort with the idea that other people have voiced.

(I'd still be comfortable with a HoYay thread to replace PPO and dueSouth, if that's on the cards as a means of reducing the number of threads)

It's almost as if saying, "OH! I only want this part of the conversation and I want it conveniently packaged for me somewhere else."

(Funny... this is Natter about Natter)
When I said I hadn't the stamina, I was meaning I couldn't keep up. When I can't keep up, I don't feel like I can add anything meaningful to a conversation, for fear that I'll be annoying and repeat what has already been said. The issue for me isn't that I wasn't that I wanted it conveniently packaged. I just want to participate without feeling like a shmuck.