But these people aren't making a Biblical argument, they're making a natural-law argument. Gay marriage is wrong because it can't make babies. Gay marriage is wrong because it leads to adultery.

Neither of those natural-law arguments is consistent with the modern Western approach to heterosexual marriage. Therefore the opposition is based on something other than natural law. That something else may indeed be Biblical.

[Actually I think this is Utilitarian rather than natural law. Mongo is ignorant of the ways of philosophy.]

Then by that logic, they should make birth control illegal for married couples, or declare marriages invalid if they couple doesn't produce children, or have to proof of trying to conceive within a certain amount of time. And fertility tests should be required to get marriage licenses. Oh, and to cut down on fornication, single people can't have birth control either.

Fay, did you DRINK the gross milk??

I did. Or at least, I got through half of it. I'd just arrived in Iasi, having spent 8 hours travelling in the sleeping compartment of a lovely, antiquated train, lying top-to-toe (8 of us in a 6 person space), unbelievably hot and sticky, after spending 12 hours in Bucharest train station. When we arrived at Iasi and went off with our respective host families, we were tired and smiley and thirsty and I entirely forgot the fact that one of our party had warned me to refuse milk if offered it, as it would be sour. When the lovely host family asked if I wanted tea, coffee or milk, a vision of a glass of ice-cold milk sprang to mind and I said milk. And milk came. And it was sour. And I drank it. Or at least, I managed half of it. And I was not sick.

A gay couple marrying pretty much means that one has to think of them having entirely non-biologically productive sex.

I'm a freak for finding this sexy, I know. Nothing to see here. Carry on.

That 65-year-old woman isn't going to have a baby, ever. Maybe she's protected by "grandmothers never have sex".

Depressingly, I'm perfectly sure she is protected by "grandmothers never have sex."

Then by that logic, they should make birth control illegal for married couples, or declare marriages invalid if they couple doesn't produce children, or have to proof of trying to conceive within a certain amount of time. And fertility tests should be required to get marriage licenses. Oh, and to cut down on fornication, single people can't have birth control either.

I'm pretty sure Scalia hates Griswold v. Connecticut, which struck down a law preventing married couples from using birth control.

cereal

Actually, if gay marriages are wrong because they don't do anything to increase the number of babies being born, then straight marriages aren't exactly an ideal institution either. Men should be able to run around impregnating willy nilly, as 'twere -- either polygamous marriages or else just random shaggage. Surely. If it's all about maximising the birthrate.

if gay marriages are wrong because they don't do anything to increase the number of babies being bor

Aww, c'mon, there's a gayby boom! Lesbians are having babies like mad! Gay men are paying women to get pregnant! It's very pro-procreation!

I guess my frustration around some liberal responses to this issue derives from the fact that some people seem almost too eager to make it about something other than homosexuality. So it's really about our culture's hangups with sex full stop, or our supposed hangups with non-reproductive sex, or it's just a convenient pretext to bash liberals, whatever, it'd be better if it weren't "really about" homosexuality because some liberals are actually a bit embarrassed to be defending something as frivolous as people's right to fuck, and have relationships with, people of their own gender. That's how these arguments often come across to me, at any rate.

(I'm not accusing anyone here of this, just trying to explain why I may come across as a bit tetchy on this issue.)

I'm pretty sure Scalia hates Griswold v. Connecticut, which struck down a law preventing married couples from using birth control.

That is one of the scariest fucking things I've ever heard.

It used to be illegal to even send mail that described birth control.

I think it really is about homosexuality, but because the conservatives feel they need to present themselves as more moral and more practical, they're trying to make it about everything else. This way they can say, "It's not that I hate gays, I'm just trying to save the world from the damage they do."

Yep, agreed on that one, Madrigal.