Re the sour milk -- "spoilage" is really a culturally relative term. For people who are used to making cheese -- which is forced curdling -- soured milk is no big deal.

I don't follow the logic.

That's because it's insane troll-doll logic.

Re the sour milk -- "spoilage" is really a culturally relative term. For people who are used to making cheese -- which is forced curdling -- soured milk is no big deal.

nods

First time I was in Romania, some 6 or 7 years ago, I was presented with a glass of cold milk by my hosts. It was sour. It had skin on the top.

(Getting milk at all was a relatively new thing in the town, and very exciting, and it was brought in from farms and people went and collected it and absolutely didn't waste it. I don't think it was pasteurised or anything, but I'm not sure.)

The problem with many of the anti-gay-marriage arguments (IMHO) is that they're papering over the real reasons for disapproving with rationalization.

For instance, the gays-can't-have-children thing. Every time I've heard of a couple of 65 marrying, the reaction has been 'Oh, how sweet, how nice for them.' Everybody knows they won't have babies, but nobody's suggesting that their marriage violates the laws of God and Man. Nobody (except perhaps some fringe churches) suggests that a fertile couple marrying without the intention of conceiving isn't really married. They may disapprove of the choice, but nobody's saying it's not a marriage. (Well, I think you can get a Catholic annulment on those grounds, but I haven't heard any Catholics arguing this should be the societal rule.)

Similarly (and I've really heard this one): men sleep around more, therefore gay marriages are more likely to be adulterous, therefore gay marriages threaten the sanctity of het marriages. If you really believe this, you should be supporting lesbian marriages, because they contain two unlikely-to-sleep-around partners. Go the chaste lesbians! Sadly, this argument is never heard.

I think a lot of people are talking around the real issue, which is that they find homosexuality and homosexual sex icky. Which is becoming an unacceptable thing to say in polite circles.

I genuinely believe that the right wing are right to be threatened: they are losing the cultural wars.

Go the chaste lesbians!

HAHAHAH! Right. Cause I don't know ANY lesbians that sleep around and cheat on their partners. Nope.

Fay, did you DRINK the gross milk??

Most infertility treatments are not covered in Canada, such as in vetro fertilization, since they are not considered medically necessary. I have a friend who spent over $50,000 trying to get pregnant.

Thanks for clarifying Megan. I've known a few Canadians who had to go the IVF route and some of them had insurance coverage, but as I noted, there were other constraints besides trying to conceive and failing. But I couldn't recall what they were. But you're right, most had to pay out of pocket, just as in the US.

HAHAHAH! Right. Cause I don't know ANY lesbians that sleep around and cheat on their partners. Nope.

Well, you're girls, and girls are nice and sweet and a civilizing influence, so a marriage without any girls is uncivilized.

Anyway, it's a statistical argument. If a guy is 51% likely to sleep around and a woman is 49%, then if you have 100 gay marriages and 100 lesbian marriages, you have fewer cheaters among the lesbians than among the gays. Doesn't mean any particular lesbian is faithful.

Although the stats are complicated by the fact that both gay and lesbian relationships are, at least based on the ones I know, more likely to be not strictly monogamous than heterosexual ones. (But don't tell George Bush that, please.)

I think a lot of people are talking around the real issue, which is that they find homosexuality and homosexual sex icky. Which is becoming an unacceptable thing to say in polite circles.

There is this. I also think it is plain, old-fashioned political expediency, as turning this into an issue a) keeps everyone distracted from the economy, the Not!WMDs and the overall frelled up mess that is Iraq (which, in part, was something to distract us from the mess that is Afghanistan), b) gives Bush, Inc. a big stick to whack the democrats and moderate republicans with, and c) gives Bush, Inc. an even bigger stick to whack Dean with if he gets the nomination, since he's from that hotbed of sin, Vermont.

I looked up where I got my figures from, and it included diagnostics and drugs like Viagra along with funds for fertility procedures, so it comes out looking like a lot more is paid for by insurance. It is mostly out of pocket, though a married couple already has the financial breaks to make it easier to pay out of pocket.

I think one of the issues about marriage that's coming up is that homosexual sex is obviously not meant for procreation. Even if a het couple is older or using birth control, there is still a chance that they could conceive. Actually, since birth control isn't externally obvious, one could imagine that every het couple isn't having the dirty sweaty sex for fun, but in order to produce a baby. A gay couple marrying pretty much means that one has to think of them having entirely non-biologically productive sex.