Fiona, you didn't start anything so much as just voice what had been hinted at at least once or twice by others and was already on my mind. Early on I was a bit concerned about the 'un' in the unamerican especially when I was extrapolating some of the 'anti-US' sentiment but IIRC a joke or two was made and no-one seemed to seriously think that any of this was really sLagging off against americans.

As an unamerican I felt that this was probably the best thread to discuss this stuff in because it was the one that most of the other unamericans seemed to keep us with and I figured that one of them, or one of the americans for that matter, would correct me fairly quickly if I made an incorrect statement or generalisation. I mean I'm only one Australian and I'm sure that even amongst the Aussies here there is a lot of discrepancy in the way we see/experience our own socio-political lives and I figured that here was as good a place as any to make sure that all the other unamericans and the americans could jump on me if I was out of line.

Also, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the sort of issues that arise with war/peace and anti-US sentiment discussions are the sort that can be mis-read or mis-interpreted very easily, and as such, if dropped into natter/bitches 24-48 hours after the original discussion (when any humorous intonation in particular) can often be taken as offensive when they were never meant to be.

Julie, how is your procrastination posting exam writing going? :-)

Edited to make sure Julie knows I'm stirring not having a go :-)

erm.. to sum up, I'm fine with war discussion happening here. I'm less comfortable with an assumption that this is the place to bring war talk.

If that makes any sense :)

edited to add...

damn you, wee moonlit, you weren't supposed to ask about those. It harshes the whole "lalala exams what exams?" mellow I have going on.

Actually, thanks for reminderembering :) I'm a bit behind schedule but I was having trouble getting into it, and then I got anxious about the having trouble. But today was actually productive. And whilst there's not a lot of time left - they are due Easter Monday, if you can believe that - I'm on track now, and it'll be okay. I mean, it has to be, right? That's the way it (and I, I guess) work.

french vanilla plunger coffee yummmmmm....

Edited to make sure Julie knows I'm stirring not having a go :-)

heee. I think everyone's gotten a little hyper-sensitive about not offending after the last little round of excitement.

But that's not necessarily a bad thing :)

What? I'm a smilie user. It comes from spending a lot of time on boards that make them yellow and bouncy or blue and noddy.

Confession time? (Hi, My name's Julie and) I've read this community for years. Literally. Since before the move to World Crossing from Table Talk. I've posted occassionally, but never really more than the cyber equivalent of borrowing a light in the pub, or giving directions to the nearest train station. And mostly, that was because I've been involved in online communities before. And they take work. Being established is good fun, but getting there? Oy.

Racking up the social capital can be damned exhausting.

And being in a whole other timezone (not to mention fifteen thousand kilometres away) from the height of the action and having a somewhat different frame of reference to language and society just brings a slew of extra challenges.

I read Kat explaining today, about what makes a community, and I really wasn't aware that people didn't approach posting in that manner. I always knew that if I wanted to get involved I'd have to throw something of me into the pot. I'm actually really fascinated to read how people thought it worked, if not like that.

erm.. to sum up, I'm fine with war discussion happening here. I'm less comfortable with an assumption that this is the place to bring war talk.

If that makes any sense :)

THANK YOU Julie! Makes perfect sense; it's what I was trying to say. Phew.

On another note -

Numfar, do the dance of new Buffy, Angel and Firefly tapes! Just in time for the four-day weekend, now I have a gazillion new episodes to watch. Many thanks Jim and, by extension, Jon.

Cereal:

I always knew that if I wanted to get involved I'd have to throw something of me into the pot.

Julie, as far as I'm aware, your into-pot-throwing cannot be faulted.

[Edited because I do know English grammar. Really.]

Numfar, do the dance of new Buffy, Angel and Firefly tapes! Just in time for the four-day weekend, now I have a gazillion new episodes to watch. Many thanks Jim and, by extension, Jon.

From what to what, Fiona?

I'm good on Angel through to 4/16. And Buffy 7/17. (And West Wing 4/19 - but I think John H. was the only other watcher of that!?!)

I really liked 7/15. I've lots to say about that one, if/when you get there.

Julie, as far as I'm aware, your into-pot-throwing cannot be faulted.

Ahh that's because you've only been getting the tasty and the garnished. Wait until it's not quite pay day and we're scrabbling 'round at the back of the fridge for a bit of sustenance. Then we'll see just how faulty I can be :)

Dang, I have to run off to Net-less work, but thanks Moonlit and Julie and all for articulating what I and a lot of other people who simply can't keep up with Natter feel. Frankly, I drop in there from time to time but lose interest quickly when a two-hundred post string of cat anecdotes pop up. I feel weird posting something serious there sometimes, and when I do it gets ignored because the people who come in and might want to reply have to wait for 500 posts to do so, and unless they're very disciplined they just don't reply.

I also voted for a War Thread so that people who didn't want to discuss politics wouldn't get upset at seeing posts about it. C'est la vie.

I came here also because, contraty to what some unAmericans might think, the anti-war protests got a LOT of coverage in this country. Europe and Australia seemed to be one big mass of protestors who believed that America had the exact same imperialist designs that their own countries had tried in the last couple of centuries. I wanted to hear a bunch of different viewpoints from people who were friendly and intelligent on why they honestly thought keeping Saddam in power was for the greater good, and now I understand it a lot more. I would do this by kidding around, and while some of my jokes fell as flat as matzoh I think I helped get some good discussions going, after everyone got miffed Margaret-Dumont style at the way I started them. Those lorgnette raps hurt!

I don't know the solution. I just know that having Natter be the sole place to discuss the war simply doesn't work for me. But for people who don't want to see it here, I can certainly understand their point of view too.

I guess all I can ask is for unAmericans to remember that while GWB indeed lost the popular vote, he is the President. You folks don't get to vote for him, so it's not your responsibility or problem. For the zillionth time, I didn't vote for him. But not only does he now have the growing support of the American people re the war, his party handily won control of the House and Senate last year. The margins are narrow but they're there. So, if you seem to be saying that Dubya and the Republicans (a vast and diverse party, BTW--my mayor, Mike Bloomberg is one) are such a bunch evil right-wing freaks, you're implying that everyone who voted for him and/or doesn't think flowers die when he walks by is sort of a dupe. I think that's what I'm picking up on and that's what I get defensive about. Dubya now sees himself as fighting a war against what Tom Friedman calls the forces of chaos--reactionary religious warriors who have proven they'll stop at nothing. In one day he lost more of his citizens than a hundred Omaghs, twenty Bali bombings, and a couple of intifadahs. He sees his prime mission as never, ever letting that happen again. His methods are open to debate here and abroad, of course, but that's how he thinks. He's more widely read and has become more and more serious in office, everybody's noticed the change in him. And the political landscape of Texas is littered with the carcasses of those who made the mistake of thinking that he was just a stupid cowboy.

So, off to work. But thanks for letting me have my say. I'd be interested to know where people think we should discuss the war, or if we shold just forget about it. Maybe the latter would be smart. But I love to hear all the viewpoints.

The thing is, Caroma, hardly anyone starts out with "imperialist designs". In most cases a country (or corporations/individuals in a country) acquire business interests abroad, then take actions to make them safe, then operate them in the most favourable way. At the same time, there's a strong sentiment to help and improve the other countries, which usually involves leading them to your ideaology - muscular christianity for the British Empire, Enightenment capitalist democracy for the US. If (as is often the case) the country doing the acquiring and helping is more powerful, the inhabitants of the other country get arsey. A climate of resentment builds up, and sooner or later someone attacks the "imperial" country. At which point, having only been trying to help, or to do business, the original country realises that the other countries are a nest of vipers, and starts using its wealth and might to make them safe. before you know it, you're deposing governments, running countries, indulging in gunboat diplomacy, and trying to remake the world to your own image. At that point, like it or not, you're an Empire. You can map that onto Rome, Britain or, right now, the USA.

I wanted to hear a bunch of different viewpoints from people who were friendly and intelligent on why they honestly thought keeping Saddam in power was for the greater good, and now I understand it a lot more. You're not as monolithic and you're not all freedom-hating status quo cappucino-sipping beret-wearing innocents as the press would portray you , and it's great to get all these viewpoints. I would do this by kidding around, and while some of my jokes fell as flat as matzoh I think I helped get some good discussions going, after everyone got miffed Margaret-Dumont style at the way I started them. Those lorgnette raps hurt!

Caroma, all I can say (between giggles) is that this joke didn't fall flat at all. I've never COMMed anything and as a recent de-lurker am a bit fearful of doing so, but I hope that the above excerpt makes it into the annals.

And Julie you've gotten into the issue that I've been doing some thinking and writing about over the last 24-48 hours, the issue of community. I'll post some of it a little later.

From what to what, Fiona?

Let's see... last six eps of Firefly (although I have yet to watch the first few); Buffy eps 7.9 through 7.16 and Angel 4.7 through 4.12. So lots of good stuff, and caught up with you Aussies, more or less.