moonlit, I don't think you realize that the civil rights movement isn't universally recognized as a good thing. Or that millions of Americans believe the gravest civil rights abuse current at the moment is the denial of the rights of whites.
I'll just jump in my time machine, go back to the twelfth century, and ask the vampires to postpone their ancient prophesy for a few days while you take in dinner and a show.
Giles ,'Selfless'
All Ogle, No Cash -- It's Not Just Annoying, It's Un-American
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Betsy HP - Apr 01, 2003 11:25:41 am PST #2934 of 9843
If I only had a brain...
meara - Apr 01, 2003 11:33:43 am PST #2935 of 9843
There should be six hours between cities!
Heh. I grew up in Indy, so Chicago was about 4 hours away. And now I'm in DC, and NY is about 4 hours away...I think four hours between cities is perfect!
Megalopolis is a cool word, but much as I enjoy the East Coast, I LIKE the space out west or even just midwest, and find the unending city a little scary as a concept....
Nutty - Apr 01, 2003 12:02:43 pm PST #2936 of 9843
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."
Well, I don't know if you can call Hamden, Connecticut an unending city, but at least you can get doughnuts there.
moonlit, what Betsy said. I don't think it can be broken down generationally, or not really; and after all, we've been fighting on and off about the same issue (democracy in other countries leading to results the US doesn't like, or similar) for a very long time. I'd be more likely to call it That Dude (Country) Don't Learn than anything specifically related to the time-period/culture in which one grew up.
moonlit - Apr 01, 2003 12:07:31 pm PST #2937 of 9843
"When the world's run by fools it's the duty of intelligence to disobey." Martin Firrell
Sorry Betsy, I haven't said anything wrong or offensive have I?
I don't think you realize that the civil rights movement isn't universally recognized as a good thing.Do you mean that there is a fairly high percentage of Americans who think that segregation/non-voting etc should still be in effect? As in the fairly commonly held view that even though African Americans have legal equality, right to vote and be voted for etc. America is still very racist.
Or that millions of Americans believe the gravest civil rights abuse current at the moment is the denial of the rights of whites.As in they feel that the pendulum has swung too far the other way, a backlash?
brenda m - Apr 01, 2003 12:09:33 pm PST #2938 of 9843
If you're going through hell/keep on going/don't slow down/keep your fear from showing/you might be gone/'fore the devil even knows you're there
As in they feel that the pendulum has swung too far the other way, a backlash?
Yes, that's it. There are people who feel we've Gone Too Far, that since there is no more discrimination it's time that white folk, particularly men, got their due.
Whatever.
Betsy HP - Apr 01, 2003 12:18:08 pm PST #2939 of 9843
If I only had a brain...
Sorry Betsy, I haven't said anything wrong or offensive have I?
No, no, far from it. I'm just responding with despair.
Yes to both of your questions. Various politicians have made healthy careers using coded phrases to express their disapproval of civil rights -- Jesse Helms, for instance, calling Martin Luther King a Communist. Jesse Helms won his 1990 election by running an ad showing two white hands crumpling a sheet of paper. "You needed that job. And you were the best qualified. But they had to give it to a minority."
Hayden - Apr 01, 2003 12:29:14 pm PST #2940 of 9843
aka "The artist formerly known as Corwood Industries."
Is it because many who have experiential, or at least academic understanding, of such major issues as civil rights and equality, recognise that those are aspects of democracy that we have only recently figured out for ourselves?
I'd say experiential is the key. The people I've met or known (Larry Goodwyn, the Rev. James Lawson, a handful of SNCC organizers located in the NC Triangle area) who were part of that first round of nonviolent direct action in the civil rights movement have been some of the most passionate committed small-d democrats I've ever known. Academic understanding is a step removed, and the people, like me, who have encountered these forms of democratic ideals in the classroom may feel committed, but it's hardly the same thing as being tested in the proverbial trial by fire. Even many of the student demonstrators today are not receiving that sort of experience. The dance between protesters and authority has become far more formalized in the intervening time.
Anyway, I've highly recommended Larry Goodwyn's books before, but again I say that the guy's understanding of history and philosophy is profound and profoundly influenced by his experience as a Texas Observer reporter on the ground floor of the 1965 SNCC campaign in the South. Larry's most profound works are about the Farmer's Alliance, which became the Populist Party, and the Solidarity movement in Poland. Both are flat-out amazing in capturing the importance of democratic ideals and communication in movement-building and movement-sustaining.
meara - Apr 01, 2003 12:30:34 pm PST #2941 of 9843
Yeah, but...what kind of percentages are we talking here? I mean, yeah, obviously there's a sizeable number who feel "it's gone too far". And there's bound to be a few whackos who believe giving up slavery was going too far. But are there really large numbers of people out there who seriously think we should go back to Jim Crow laws, or something??
moonlit - Apr 01, 2003 12:32:04 pm PST #2942 of 9843
"When the world's run by fools it's the duty of intelligence to disobey." Martin Firrell
Yeah, the two examples I was going to use was those politicians who blame migrants and working women for all the woes of society, particularly unemployment.
Sarameg, this from the article, blunt and to-the-point,
Other than Britain, we bought this alliance. Almost every government in it is operating without the support of its people.and this,
Other than Britain, we bought this alliance. Almost every government in it is operating without the support of its people. Fighting this war without international legitimacy is hard enough, but trying to do nation-building without it could be even harder.
askye - Apr 01, 2003 12:42:45 pm PST #2943 of 9843
Thrive to spite them
Regarding the "it's gone too far" issue about equal rights, I think it depends on what part of the country you are in and what types of people you are talking to.
Unfortunatly I know and have worked with people who are very racist and do believe that white people are getting the short end of the stick, that they are being kept out of jobs and college because of affirmative action. They also think that non whites should "know their place" or "be grateful" for where they are now and stop whining about slavery and things like Jim Crow laws and segregation. They are the same people who say things like "America for Americans" and classify "Americans" in the very narrow category of being white and Protestant and thinking like they do.
These people generally aren't too happy with equality that women have and think that equal rights for women have gone too far as well.
These are people who, when they think they are in the company of others who think like they do, will use racial slurs and make racist jokes and talk about "those people" and not see what the big deal is.