Raise your hand if 'ew.'

Buffy ,'Same Time, Same Place'


All Ogle, No Cash -- It's Not Just Annoying, It's Un-American

Discussion of episodes currently airing in Un-American locations (anything that's aired in Australia is fair game), as well as anything else the Un-Americans feel like talking about or we feel like asking them. Please use the show discussion threads for any current-season discussion.

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Fay - Mar 28, 2003 8:58:45 pm PST #2575 of 9843
"Fuck Western ideologically-motivated gender identification!" Sulu gasped, and came.

I don't know why people think some sugar water or fried potatoes mean anything except that the company that makes them started randomly in a certain country

You don't think that companies make any attempt to create brand identities? You don't see advertising building upon prejudices and predelictions? You don't associate particular brands with particular 'images'? You don't think its American-ness is something that Coke considers important? I'm not asking whether you, educated, middle class American that you are, can see through the manipulations of advertisers and choose your clothing, food and household items based upon inherent value rather than intangibles and perceived cachet. I'm just asking whether you think that the majority of people do.

I guess what annoys some Americans is that Europe made a choice and now seems mad that we didn't go the same way.

Here's the thing: Europe isn't a country. Europe isn't one ideology or one political system. So if you're going to base an argument on a US/Europe dichotomy we may have some problems, because Europe doesn't have or express one unified opinion about, well, pretty much anything. What with Europe comprising a shitload of different countries.

But now it's seen that Europe doesn't want us to use our hard-won military might to free another people.

We really have quite diametrically opposed views of current events, if this is genuinely how you interpret (a) what's happening in the world right now and (b) why many people in the world are uncomfortable with it. Not just Europe, incidentally. China. The Middle East. Africa. Canada. Pretty much the whole world.

Many countries don't countenance the unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation and the murder of its citizens in the attempt to depose its ruler, however much of a complete and utter bastard he may be. Because if failure to comply immediately with UN resolutions is worth invading a country about, why isn't this applied across the board? And why does it justify disregarding the democratic process of the UN? Conversely, if the UN doesn't matter a jot and we're invading Iraq because its ruler is a bad ruler who opresses his people, why doesn't this apply across the board? If it's because he may have weapons of mass destruction hidden somewhere despite all our efforts to find any evidence, why is this more important than North Korea, which definitely has Nuclear weapons? The US (and, I've no doubt, the UK) has a history of supporting dictators and brutal regimes - indeed, of deposing/helping to destroy democratically elected governments - because it suited their own goals. International policy has not traditionally been dictated by high-minded ideals, although I like to think that both our nations do manage to do 'the right thing' sometimes even if it doesn't meet our selfish ends. I hope so. But that isn't what motivates most of your foreign policy, or ours.

These may all be points which can be addressed and demonstrated to be mistaken, and our actions in attacking Iraq may be seen by History as A Good Thing, but there are too many inconsistencies for the current position to be accepted easily by the rest of the world as a good guys V bad guys scenario.

It looks far too much like Iraq is the whipping boy for 9/11, despite not being responsible for it. It looks too much like we're saying "Hey, nobody's been seen to pay for the bruising to our pride and our confidence after somebody had the nerve to try terrorism against us. We wanted that Bin Laden's head on a pole, but he's not cooperating. They're all arabs. What's the difference?"

Presenting this as churlishness on the part of "Old Europe", as the White House has taken to doing of late, is patronising the intelligence of the American people. No doubt everyone has an agenda coloured by their own particular situation in relation to the Middle East, but it sure as hell isn't a simple black and white matter of Good Old America being selfless and compassionate versus Selfish Old Europe being mean and intransigent. It's a case of the USA (and, God help us, the UK) versus the rest of the world, for reasons that continue to be opaque. We're deciding that democracy doesn't count if it doesn't agree with the decisions of the richest voters.

There's also nasty undercurrents of anit-Semitism in some of what you see over here, especially from France.

For my part I've seen more in the way of prejudice against Islam, and disconcerting Muslim=Fundamentalist=Terrorist=BrownPersonWithFunnyHat bigotry, but YBigotryMV. There's undoubtedly anti-Semitism out there, and that's a problem. There's shitloads of insidious anti-Arab sentiment out there, though, and it's reinforced in the media (film & TV especially).

(I very much don't equate pro-Palestinian sentiment with anti-Semitism, myself, but I trust you weren't doing that either.)

No wonder they're so nervous about America making the same mistakes they did. I guess they don't realize we have no intention of taking over anything.

Speaking personally, yes, I am. And no, I don't.

edited for clarity. Without much confidence.


Hil R. - Mar 28, 2003 9:43:44 pm PST #2576 of 9843
Sometimes I think I might just move up to Vermont, open a bookstore or a vegan restaurant. Adam Schlesinger, z''l

For my part I've seen more in the way of prejudice against Islam, and disconcerting Muslim=Fundamentalist=Terrorist=BrownPersonWithFunnyHat bigotry, but YBigotryMV. There's undoubtedly anti-Semitism out there, and that's a problem. There's shitloads of insidious anti-Arab sentiment out there, though, and it's reinforced in the media (film & TV especially).

Agreed on both counts. I have seen a whole lot of prejudice against Islam. (And against Sikhs, because it seems like a lot of people can't tell the difference.) It seems to have died down a bit lately, but it's definitely there. And while there is nowhere near as much overt anti-Semitism, it has seemed to be on the rise lately, and I've seen some stuff recently that's scared me.

(I very much don't equate pro-Palestinian sentiment with anti-Semitism, myself, but I trust you weren't doing that either.)

Depends on context and how it's expressed. (And, pro-Palestinian is really not a terribly useful term. I've heard people claim that they're pro-Palestinian, and then express almost exactly the same "what should happen" views that someone who self-identifies as pro-Israeli says.) But, I have seen plenty of anti-Israel protests step way over the line into anti-Semitism.


P.M. Marc - Mar 28, 2003 9:46:30 pm PST #2577 of 9843
So come, my friends, be not afraid/We are so lightly here/It is in love that we are made; In love we disappear

Fay, I fucking love you.

Did you read This when it was in the Guardian? Because, yeah, this is pretty much dead-on for my part of the country.


Ms. Havisham - Mar 28, 2003 9:48:02 pm PST #2578 of 9843
And we will call it... "This Land."

I guess they don't realize we have no intention of taking over anything.

America's intention is, apparently, to jump in, smash things up and then sweep it under the carpet. We've done it before, we'll do it again, and... well, who's going to stop us?

How are Haiti and Somalia doing these days? I couldn't tell you.

I'm an all-or-nothing sort when it comes to foreign policy. Let's either go in and do it or stay home and ignore them. Going about things half-assed, creating martyrs and offending everybody, accomplishes nothing in the long run.


§ ita § - Mar 28, 2003 9:48:13 pm PST #2579 of 9843
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Plei, you have an extra %22 trailing your URL, there.


P.M. Marc - Mar 28, 2003 9:52:50 pm PST #2580 of 9843
So come, my friends, be not afraid/We are so lightly here/It is in love that we are made; In love we disappear

I left off the first "

Having spent the day making little modulets for pages, I am now no longer able to even make a decent href. Ah well.


Hil R. - Mar 28, 2003 10:17:07 pm PST #2581 of 9843
Sometimes I think I might just move up to Vermont, open a bookstore or a vegan restaurant. Adam Schlesinger, z''l

Oh, and there are a bunch of people here protesting the war by camping out on the quad. I'm not entirely sure what they plan to accomplish, but they say they're not leaving until the war is over. They've been relatively considerate about moving the tents over to the edge of the quad when the center was needed for soccer games or concerts. A few days ago, they had a sign saying they were on a hunger strike, but that didn't even last a day.


Noumenon - Mar 28, 2003 10:47:08 pm PST #2582 of 9843
No other candidate is asking the hard questions, like "Did geophysicists assassinate Jim Henson?" or "Why is there hydrogen in America's water supply?" --defective yeti

I'm not asking whether you, educated, middle class American that you are, can see through the manipulations of advertisers and choose your clothing, food and household items based upon inherent value rather than intangibles and perceived cachet.

Sounds like the kind of attitude that's vulnerable to advertising for Evian instead of Coke. Good example of Haagen-Dazs. I thought it was all premium and imported, even though I wasn't consciously giving it extra status for being German or Danish or whatever.

I read an article that Arabs are boycotting Coca-Cola, and that it doesn't make any more sense than freedom fries because Coca-Cola employs local bottlers, and "Mecca-Cola" and others are made in Europe.


Fiona - Mar 29, 2003 2:04:22 am PST #2583 of 9843

I guess what annoys some Americans is that Europe made a choice and now seems mad that we didn't go the same way. After two wars of violence that Americans really can't comprehend, they decided to spend their money on social justice and a subsidized lifestyle-free health care, free college, cheap housing, etc.

I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that France and Germany might be against war because they have experienced at first hand, in their not too distant past, what war can do. Also, most Americans are unaware of the fact that the German constitution forbid the German army from taking part in any war until very, very recently, something which the Allies stipulated after the last war. There are very sound historical reasons why the German military has been kept weak, and blaming the Germans for this alone is somewhat misplaced. The German army took part in action again for the first time since WW2 in the former Yugoslavia, and this was accompanied by a whole load of debate and soul-searching, something which other countries could do with a little of, perhaps.

The current generation of Germans are very aware of the historical meaning of their country's military capability and try to be sensitive to that. I find it ironic that the US are accusing them of cowardice or holding back.


Trudy Booth - Mar 29, 2003 3:21:55 am PST #2584 of 9843
Greece's financial crisis threatens to take down all of Western civilization - a civilization they themselves founded. A rather tragic irony - which is something they also invented. - Jon Stewart

If by "ironic" you mean "fucking ludicrous" I agree wholeheartedly.