Which is not to say that I think he was always kind to the boys, and I do want to slap him in "Home" and "Faith" for not (apparently) doing something. But he's desperate at that point--he knows it's a demon by then, and demons are something they don't really know how to deal with, and he also knows something about the special children, so he knows Sam is at risk. He cannot risk drawing its attention to them.

Consuela, I'm assuming you're referring to John not actually physically getting involved in their situations at that point. Which I could almost accept, if he weren't sitting in Missouri's living room in Lawrence during "Home." That's close enough to the boys for the demons, I would think. And it still doesn't explain why he can make all those officious phone calls and send text messages sending them to haunted apple orchards and asylums to rescue strangers, but can't spare 60 seconds to ask how his own sons are doing. If phone calls and text messages are safe (i.e., won't leave a trail leading the YED to Sam/Dean) then dammit, Pick Up the Phone and call them!.

In "Salvation" when John pulls his truck off the road and shows how upset he is that Pastor Jim has been killed, and then later shows how upset he is that Caleb has been killed, I was thinking, yeah, but where was all this emotion when your own son was dying? Yes, I have John issues. I hurt on behalf of the boys.

Ok, so.... someone needs to take Simon Says away from me. Because I've watched Dean sing Speedwagon about ten times in the last ten minutes, and my poor fangirl brain canna take it.

I don't disagree on any of that, really, Morgana. I do think he may have fucked up, because we don't know his reasoning in any detail, for why it was okay to call the boys in "Scarecrow" but not in "Faith".

I know he did some unforgiveable things in the name of protecting them. I'm quite sure he felt he didn't have a choice.

And if it meant protecting them so they would be alive instead of dead, I think he would be okay with that. Even if they never did forgive him.

That's my take on John.

someone needs to take Simon Says away from me. Because I've watched Dean sing Speedwagon about ten times in the last ten minutes, and my poor fangirl brain canna take it.

Ailleann, I'm hoping the CW reruns the beginning of this season at some point, because I have all the episodes except 1-6 on tape. So I'm missing that one, dammit. And I'm going to be tightly clutching the tapes to my chest until the next set of DVDs comes out.

Hopefully they'll fill time in the summer, Morgana.

you're a candle in the window on a cold dark winter's night...

*is ded*

I was doing the flailing over "Croatoan" last night, as I do every time I see it. I know Sam is the unquestioned holder of the title "High Prince of Angst," but damn if Dean didn't bring it home. Knowing that he unquestioningly stayed behind, knowing that they were out of options, fully planning to execute Sam when the time came, and then to kill himself.... wibble. Oh, boys....

My main frustration with the John-haters is -- wtf is NORMAL in that situation?

I think he did the best he could in a really weird situation.

The sense I get (and I'm not speaking for you, Morgana) is that many of them identify so strongly with Dean and Sam, and John does hurt his sons in many ways (though mostly unintentionally), that they can't get past that to see that maybe John had logical reasons for doing what he did. That in fact nobody could have done much of a better job, given those circumstances.

It's kind of like some slash fans lashing out at the woman in the room, because she threatens, via her heterosexual attraction, their OTP. John hurt Dean, therefore John is a Bad Father.

Dean's got his suave, his sarcasm, his natural charm, but he can't play normal like Sam can.

This is why I have my personal theory/belief that Sam learned normal as a defense against being the weird and awkward-looking kid, as well as as his way to rebel, where Dean a: probably considered leaving his socks around a grand act of rebelling; and b: got by well enough on surface things like charm and looks that he didn't have to learn normal.

He's been demonstrated to be able to play whatever professional part fairly well, hasn't he? (I've not seen all of S1, I think)

Blue collar things, he's able to fake. White collar, not as easily. There are, of course, exceptions to that, but it holds well enough as a general rule. (See: Supernatural and class-coding, and that whole essay I want to write some day on Sam, Dean, and moving between classes.)

And if it meant protecting them so they would be alive instead of dead, I think he would be okay with that. Even if they never did forgive him.

Yeah. I think we have similar mental Johns.

The defining scenes for me, with John, are John and Sam bonding over college money gone for ammo, and the one my LJ default icon of the moment is from, with him making the deal with the YED.

Knowing that he unquestioningly stayed behind, knowing that they were out of options, fully planning to execute Sam when the time came, and then to kill himself....

Oh, yeah. And knowing now what burden he was carrying, the almost relieved resignation to their fate hits extra-hard.

Plei, and anyone/everyone else-- Hell House?