It's funny, the question of "Dark" fic, both how common it is in a fandom, and how it's defined. When I got into Farscape, Maayan and I spent a lot of time going, "where's the tough stuff?" Because we just weren't finding it.

Nobody was really pushing the characters all the way to the worst possible outcomes, nobody was breaking them in interesting ways. Which is odd, because the show supports that interpretation, imho. It's all about throwing people against the worst in themselves. And in fic, you can do anything you want, so I didn't understand why more people weren't experimenting with this.

In XF, there's no shortage or truly horrible stories, or at least truly dark outcomes: "Before I Forget Blue", "Drive, He Said", Nascent's Barnyard Stories, lots of post-col, lots of the profiler fics. SE Parson's work, M Sebasky's work, Sabine's "Are We Having a Good Time?" (I think that's not the right name, but it's close). Rivka & Sally's "Iolokus" and "Tikkun Olam". Rivka's "Wireless". LoneGunGuy's "The Tiger Complex". Sally's post-ep for En Ami. They push and they push and they push, all the way out.

Most of the SG fic I've been reading is the stuff off recs from Vonnie and company, so I expect it to be good and probably dark. I have no concept of what the bulk of the fandom is writing.

What I do know is that in Farscape, until recently, the really dark stuff didn't go over very well. The fans have issues with anything that doesn't show a glimmer of hope. There have been long-ranging arguments waged over this on various boards and lists, and basically the two sides have forced a detente. I'm never going to convince anyone that "Xenophilia" is believable if she's completely invested in the John/Aeryn romance, and I'm never going to buy a happy family story with aliens on Earth. (Well, never say never: but you'd have to work for it.)

But after reading "The Cost of Doing Business" I realized that I hadn't read anyone but Maayan who'd done that to the Farscape characters. And even she mostly did it by implication: I'm thinking of "Gehenna" and "Black(Ghosts)" primarily. People die, but it's mostly offstage. Not the way Tripoli does it.

Oh, and Katie? Thanks for the link to Salieri's LJ and that conversation. I'd been wondering where Maayan was hiding out *g*.

You know, the first fic I thought about after I read "The Cost of Doing Business" was RivkaT's "Wireless", which is one of my all-time fave in any fandom. XF was such a goldmine for darkfic. I'm surprised at the dearth of a similar type of fic at FS fandom, because well, look at the canon.

(Barnyard Series! God, I loved them so. So funny and so fucked-up. Too bad Nascent took her fic off the 'net.)

I don't want to fall into the trap of automatic dark = good, 'cause I think it'd probably be harder to write a genuinely happy story without letting it fall into schmoopy goop than to write darkfic, but I dunno... it's like I have been imprinted on them via XF fandom. I gravitate toward the dark.

As to how to define darkfic... Hmm, it's more about the psychological state of your protagonist at the end of the story than it is about what horrible events have befallen the character. Like Anne said about the Kat Allison fic (which I haven't read), if there is bittersweetness or glimmer of hope at the end, I wouldn't call it really dark no matter how much pain the character has been through. The flip-side would be... let me see, something like Salieri's Surface Tension, which I would probably classify as darkfic despite the nominally "happy" denouement, plot-wise, because this paragraph near the end?

"They didn't just make me know. They made me see. I saw you. . . your--" The memory is like a blocked artery, a painful pressure depriving her of oxygen, greying out the world. "I saw. But I wouldn't let them make me feel so they pushed and pushed. And I was so tired. And now there's this--" she presses her fist against her chest until the dogtags bite into her skin, her eyes squeezed shut, "--this hole in me where you used to be. All of you."

... totally signfies the kind of spiritual loss that is the hallmark of a darkfic. Not many people do stuff like this in SG--off the top of my head, we've got Tripoli, Salieri and Otter, and that's about it.

Jossverse fosters this way better, but as Anne has said, the impact is not as startling because it's kind of expected in the fandom.

Good example, Vonnie. I just read that story the other day. It's kind of the Won't Get Fooled Again of SG fandom. And in some ways ends the same, with the character utterly alone, despite the narrative conclusion.

it's more about the psychological state of your protagonist at the end of the story than it is about what horrible events have befallen the character.

Yeah, although I think someone who kills everyone off along the way gets points for darkness. Maayan's one-line about D'Argo's death in "Gehenna" gets me every time. The death has to be felt, I think. It's not there for shock, or not only shock, it's there for the impact on whoever's left.

The difference in "Black(Ghosts)" is that by the end, only the reader is left. Heh.

I think it'd probably be harder to write a genuinely happy story without letting it fall into schmoopy goop than to write darkfic

No question. I think it's also hard to write funny believable. Especially well-plotted, well-characterized funny. Which is why Speranza is so celebrated (as she should be).

I got pinged by someone in Farscape for reccing darker stuff mostly, the person claimed that I was letting my preference for dark stories color my acknowledgement of good writing. The problem is that given the canon, it's hard to write universally happy endings believably, and it's hard to write light anyway. I like funny & happy but I'm not giving up my critical sensibilities just for those categories of stories.

Interesting - I always assumed that hole would be filled eventually. If I had to point to one of Sal's as darkfic - you know, other than Eloquence - I'd choose, shoot, I've forgotten the name. The one with Shifu.

But even then... I don't think it's quite cold enough. For me to point at something and call it darkfic, it has to be pretty much completely lightless and ugly. (I'm not a big fan; I pretty commonly walk away feeling like the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark, which is my issue not theirs, but there you are. When it works for me, though, wow does it work.)

I'm not a big fan; I pretty commonly walk away feeling like the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark, which is my issue not theirs, but there you are. When it works for me, though, wow does it work.

I've been accused of being a dark fic writer, but I think it's just that I tend to see the worst case scenario often enough for it to make its way into my writing. Which does make me giggle, but doesn't leave me feeling that I'm especially cool.

Oh, I know - I'm assigning motives to writers that are probably untrue. It's just a kneejerk reaction on my part. Probably dates from middle school; most of that kind of thing does.

I've forgotten the name. The one with Shifu.

Desolation Angels. Talk about fuckin' Ow.

It's interesting, the different interpretations we have on the same fic. It's kind of analogous to how movie buffs have problems defining "film noir" in the same way. The end of "Surface Tension" left me thinking that Sam would always remain broken, no matter how loving her teammates might be. Likewise, I thought TCoDB is pretty much as bleak and hopeless as you can get in fic, but Maayan disagreed with my assessment of it as 'bleak'. (Then there was a long discussion about the meaning of catharsis iirc.)

the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark

Oh yeah. There is a lot of this, as much as there is nauseating schmoop in 'happy' relationship fic. If you can see transparent authorial smirk in the fic, then in my book, the story already went past the dark vs. light divide into the badfic territory. I don't see this very often because I pretty much only read the stuff recc'd to me by people whose taste I trust. (Which kind of makes me a bad reccer since how else would you find new talented writers if you don't read far and wide?)

For me to point at something and call it darkfic, it has to be pretty much completely lightless and ugly.

Which actually means that not much qualifies, then. Because in the best stories, even if it ends badly (like TCODB), there's generally something in it of humor or hope or love.

By your definition, Katie, I don't think I've ever written anything that qualifies. Except for maybe The Mill.

Which actually means that not much qualifies, then. Because in the best stories, even if it ends badly (like TCODB), there's generally something in it of humor or hope or love.

Hmm, okay. I see your point, and will be falling back on the "it's what I point at when I say darkfic" definition any minute now.

TCODB would be darkfic if I didn't believe in it so much, because it ends with the world - the story's world, that is, not the world as a whole - irreparably broken, and every character in it at low ebb. (Oddly, I think that the ouch of that story is added to by the very end, when Daniel is left having to decide what to do now. That's worse, somehow, than it would've been had it ended on the earlier nastiness.) Yeah, there's kindness in it, and there's humor, and courage, and love, and none of it matters in the end.

So maybe that's the key to me; if it makes a difference, the light that's there, the story can't be darkfic in my head (though it can certainly be dark).