Good example, Vonnie. I just read that story the other day. It's kind of the Won't Get Fooled Again of SG fandom. And in some ways ends the same, with the character utterly alone, despite the narrative conclusion.

it's more about the psychological state of your protagonist at the end of the story than it is about what horrible events have befallen the character.

Yeah, although I think someone who kills everyone off along the way gets points for darkness. Maayan's one-line about D'Argo's death in "Gehenna" gets me every time. The death has to be felt, I think. It's not there for shock, or not only shock, it's there for the impact on whoever's left.

The difference in "Black(Ghosts)" is that by the end, only the reader is left. Heh.

I think it'd probably be harder to write a genuinely happy story without letting it fall into schmoopy goop than to write darkfic

No question. I think it's also hard to write funny believable. Especially well-plotted, well-characterized funny. Which is why Speranza is so celebrated (as she should be).

I got pinged by someone in Farscape for reccing darker stuff mostly, the person claimed that I was letting my preference for dark stories color my acknowledgement of good writing. The problem is that given the canon, it's hard to write universally happy endings believably, and it's hard to write light anyway. I like funny & happy but I'm not giving up my critical sensibilities just for those categories of stories.

Interesting - I always assumed that hole would be filled eventually. If I had to point to one of Sal's as darkfic - you know, other than Eloquence - I'd choose, shoot, I've forgotten the name. The one with Shifu.

But even then... I don't think it's quite cold enough. For me to point at something and call it darkfic, it has to be pretty much completely lightless and ugly. (I'm not a big fan; I pretty commonly walk away feeling like the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark, which is my issue not theirs, but there you are. When it works for me, though, wow does it work.)

I'm not a big fan; I pretty commonly walk away feeling like the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark, which is my issue not theirs, but there you are. When it works for me, though, wow does it work.

I've been accused of being a dark fic writer, but I think it's just that I tend to see the worst case scenario often enough for it to make its way into my writing. Which does make me giggle, but doesn't leave me feeling that I'm especially cool.

Oh, I know - I'm assigning motives to writers that are probably untrue. It's just a kneejerk reaction on my part. Probably dates from middle school; most of that kind of thing does.

I've forgotten the name. The one with Shifu.

Desolation Angels. Talk about fuckin' Ow.

It's interesting, the different interpretations we have on the same fic. It's kind of analogous to how movie buffs have problems defining "film noir" in the same way. The end of "Surface Tension" left me thinking that Sam would always remain broken, no matter how loving her teammates might be. Likewise, I thought TCoDB is pretty much as bleak and hopeless as you can get in fic, but Maayan disagreed with my assessment of it as 'bleak'. (Then there was a long discussion about the meaning of catharsis iirc.)

the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark

Oh yeah. There is a lot of this, as much as there is nauseating schmoop in 'happy' relationship fic. If you can see transparent authorial smirk in the fic, then in my book, the story already went past the dark vs. light divide into the badfic territory. I don't see this very often because I pretty much only read the stuff recc'd to me by people whose taste I trust. (Which kind of makes me a bad reccer since how else would you find new talented writers if you don't read far and wide?)

For me to point at something and call it darkfic, it has to be pretty much completely lightless and ugly.

Which actually means that not much qualifies, then. Because in the best stories, even if it ends badly (like TCODB), there's generally something in it of humor or hope or love.

By your definition, Katie, I don't think I've ever written anything that qualifies. Except for maybe The Mill.

Which actually means that not much qualifies, then. Because in the best stories, even if it ends badly (like TCODB), there's generally something in it of humor or hope or love.

Hmm, okay. I see your point, and will be falling back on the "it's what I point at when I say darkfic" definition any minute now.

TCODB would be darkfic if I didn't believe in it so much, because it ends with the world - the story's world, that is, not the world as a whole - irreparably broken, and every character in it at low ebb. (Oddly, I think that the ouch of that story is added to by the very end, when Daniel is left having to decide what to do now. That's worse, somehow, than it would've been had it ended on the earlier nastiness.) Yeah, there's kindness in it, and there's humor, and courage, and love, and none of it matters in the end.

So maybe that's the key to me; if it makes a difference, the light that's there, the story can't be darkfic in my head (though it can certainly be dark).

none of it matters in the end.

Hmmm. But it matters to the reader, though. It doesn't to Daniel -- he didn't get to see Sam's humor and courage or Jack's wit or Teal'c's insane plea. Janet's efforts at connection bounce right off him, and have no effect.

But you did get to see all that, and I did.

So I guess the question is, whose perspective is most important when defining darkfic? The characters' or the readers'?

So I guess the question is, whose perspective is most important when defining darkfic? The characters' or the readers'?

Well, since I'm making the definition, its my perspective that I'm working from. You could probably write something I would consider darkfic in which the characters themselves were very, very happy and satisfied.

You could probably write something I would consider darkfic in which the characters themselves were very, very happy and satisfied.

Hmmm. I'm trying to imagine such a scenario; although the final run of episodes in Farscape sort of does that to me. The characters themselves seem rather pleased (aside from the jujube business) but I'm deeply disturbed because I think they're bugfuck crazy.