I've forgotten the name. The one with Shifu.

Desolation Angels. Talk about fuckin' Ow.

It's interesting, the different interpretations we have on the same fic. It's kind of analogous to how movie buffs have problems defining "film noir" in the same way. The end of "Surface Tension" left me thinking that Sam would always remain broken, no matter how loving her teammates might be. Likewise, I thought TCoDB is pretty much as bleak and hopeless as you can get in fic, but Maayan disagreed with my assessment of it as 'bleak'. (Then there was a long discussion about the meaning of catharsis iirc.)

the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark

Oh yeah. There is a lot of this, as much as there is nauseating schmoop in 'happy' relationship fic. If you can see transparent authorial smirk in the fic, then in my book, the story already went past the dark vs. light divide into the badfic territory. I don't see this very often because I pretty much only read the stuff recc'd to me by people whose taste I trust. (Which kind of makes me a bad reccer since how else would you find new talented writers if you don't read far and wide?)

For me to point at something and call it darkfic, it has to be pretty much completely lightless and ugly.

Which actually means that not much qualifies, then. Because in the best stories, even if it ends badly (like TCODB), there's generally something in it of humor or hope or love.

By your definition, Katie, I don't think I've ever written anything that qualifies. Except for maybe The Mill.

Which actually means that not much qualifies, then. Because in the best stories, even if it ends badly (like TCODB), there's generally something in it of humor or hope or love.

Hmm, okay. I see your point, and will be falling back on the "it's what I point at when I say darkfic" definition any minute now.

TCODB would be darkfic if I didn't believe in it so much, because it ends with the world - the story's world, that is, not the world as a whole - irreparably broken, and every character in it at low ebb. (Oddly, I think that the ouch of that story is added to by the very end, when Daniel is left having to decide what to do now. That's worse, somehow, than it would've been had it ended on the earlier nastiness.) Yeah, there's kindness in it, and there's humor, and courage, and love, and none of it matters in the end.

So maybe that's the key to me; if it makes a difference, the light that's there, the story can't be darkfic in my head (though it can certainly be dark).

none of it matters in the end.

Hmmm. But it matters to the reader, though. It doesn't to Daniel -- he didn't get to see Sam's humor and courage or Jack's wit or Teal'c's insane plea. Janet's efforts at connection bounce right off him, and have no effect.

But you did get to see all that, and I did.

So I guess the question is, whose perspective is most important when defining darkfic? The characters' or the readers'?

So I guess the question is, whose perspective is most important when defining darkfic? The characters' or the readers'?

Well, since I'm making the definition, its my perspective that I'm working from. You could probably write something I would consider darkfic in which the characters themselves were very, very happy and satisfied.

You could probably write something I would consider darkfic in which the characters themselves were very, very happy and satisfied.

Hmmm. I'm trying to imagine such a scenario; although the final run of episodes in Farscape sort of does that to me. The characters themselves seem rather pleased (aside from the jujube business) but I'm deeply disturbed because I think they're bugfuck crazy.

Hmmm. I'm trying to imagine such a scenario; although the final run of episodes in Farscape sort of does that to me. The characters themselves seem rather pleased (aside from the jujube business) but I'm deeply disturbed because I think they're bugfuck crazy.

Heh. Well, there's that. No, I was thinking imposed from outside - drugs, mind control, whatever.

Oh, yeah, that'd work. Or maybe someone dies happy?

You could probably write something I would consider darkfic in which the characters themselves were very, very happy and satisfied.

Many parts of the Angel S4 finale could fall into this category, if you think about it.

So I guess the question is, whose perspective is most important when defining darkfic? The characters' or the readers'?

I'm not sure they can be separated out. A lot of the darkness in a fic like TCoDB comes from the divide between the reader's perspective and the characters'. The characters see only the darkness that surrounds them individually and that darkness (or delusion, in the case of "Home") impacts how the reader sees the rest of the story, while the rest of the story affects how the reader views each individual character.

the author is less being clear-eyed and more being self-satisfied with how cool they are for being all dark

In good darkfic, I get the feeling that the author is suffering alongside (or on behalf) of the character. In those cases, much of the pain comes from the way that the different characters act and react--there is respect for and acknowledgement of the characters' loves, hates, hopes, fears, quirks, virtues, and flaws.

With the bad stuff, the author comes across more as a sadist than anything else.

You could probably write something I would consider darkfic in which the characters themselves were very, very happy and satisfied.

In Smallville, Jenn's story...um...crap, I've forgotten the title, because it scared me and I never finished it. t checks PolyRecs "A Handful of Dust." Or Rivka's "Golden Rule."

In Jenn's story, Superman is basically a cult leader, right? And Lex gives in to him at the end. And in Rivka's, Lex has amnesia, and both characters prefer it that way, because they don't have to deal with all the crap that came before.