Inara: I think she looks adorable. Mal: Yeah, but I never said it.

'Shindig'


Natter 42, the Universe, and Everything  

Off-topic discussion. Wanna talk about corsets, flaming otters, or physics? This is the place. Detailed discussion of any current-season TV must be whitefonted.


tommyrot - Feb 08, 2006 7:22:00 am PST #5677 of 10002
Sir, it's not an offence to let your cat eat your bacon. Okay? And we don't arrest cats, I'm very sorry.

More on "The Wedge" - this is by Judge Jones in his decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover:

Dramatic evidence of ID's religious nature and aspirations is found in what is referred to as the "Wedge Document." The Wedge Document, developed by the Discovery Institute's Center for Renewal of Science and Culture (hereinafter "CRSC"), represents from an institutional standpoint, the IDM's goals and objectives, much as writings from the Institute for Creation Research did for the earlier creation-science movement, as discussed in McLean. (11:26-28 (Forrest)); McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1255. The Wedge Document states in its "Five Year Strategic Plan Summary" that the IDM's goal is to replace science as currently practiced with "theistic and Christian science." (P-140 at 6). As posited in the Wedge Document, the IDM's "Governing Goals" are to "defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural, and political legacies" and "to replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God." Id. at 4. The CSRC expressly announces, in the Wedge Document, a program of Christian apologetics to promote ID. A careful review of the Wedge Document's goals and language throughout the document reveals cultural and religious goals, as opposed to scientific ones. (11:26-48 (Forrest); P-140). ID aspires to change the ground rules of science to make room for religion, specifically, beliefs consonant with a particular version of Christianity.

[link]


Gudanov - Feb 08, 2006 7:22:31 am PST #5678 of 10002
Coding and Sleeping

I really don't have much of a problem with ID theory. In the long run, I think it will have a positive benefit on science, even if it is proven wrong.

I don't have a problem with ID either, but it's not science and shouldn't be treated as such. I think it's fine if people believe that there is a supernatural entity guiding the course of evolution and doing the really complicated stuff, and it's a pretty sensible way to reconcile religion and science. However, it's not something that be proven or disproven, so it really doesn't belong in the realm of science.


Wolfram - Feb 08, 2006 7:23:12 am PST #5679 of 10002
Visilurking

I mean, it's scarcely possible that anyone who ever took a human anatomy class really believes that we were designed by an intelligent creator.

That's odd. I personally know more than a dozen physicians who, in fact, believe just that. I'd be careful tossing the generalities around.


brenda m - Feb 08, 2006 7:24:24 am PST #5680 of 10002
If you're going through hell/keep on going/don't slow down/keep your fear from showing/you might be gone/'fore the devil even knows you're there

One has to distinguish legitimacy from truth, right? I don't think one should assume that ID has no independent validity but rather argue the point.

Generally, yes, but in this case, it's not the truth of the "theory" that's suspect (not for the point I'm making) but it the legitimacy of the the theory as an independent belief - does ID have any purpose, any *existence*, outside of the creationist agenda? I don't think it does - others have made this point so I won't belabor it - and it's history suggests that that's the case.


JZ - Feb 08, 2006 7:24:43 am PST #5681 of 10002
See? I gave everybody here an opportunity to tell me what a bad person I am and nobody did, because I fuckin' rule.

No previous experience in audits, but hey! he was an ethics lawyer for the White House General Counsel during this admin!

Which is awful and cronytastic and forehead-smacky in lots of ways, but not plain fucking stupid in the same way as putting a bald-faced lie on your resumé about graduating from a place you didn't graduate from. It was an ER plot twist from, like, fifty years ago or something!

I'm all sad about the total and utter tainting of the term "Intelligent Design;" when I first heard it several long years ago, it sounded like a perfectly decent descriptor of people who both believe in God and are down with the Big Bang and evolution and all that smart thinky-people stuff, and now it's just another weapon of craxy. It'd be nice to have a new, non-loaded term, but I'm askeered the ID folks would just glom onto that one instead and ruin it too. Apparently the wisest rule for people who are theo-evolutiono-thinkist is the Fight Club rule.


sumi - Feb 08, 2006 7:25:44 am PST #5682 of 10002
Art Crawl!!!

Project Runway fans: An interview with Andrae Gonzalo.


brenda m - Feb 08, 2006 7:25:54 am PST #5683 of 10002
If you're going through hell/keep on going/don't slow down/keep your fear from showing/you might be gone/'fore the devil even knows you're there

In the long run, I think it will have a positive benefit on science, even if it is proven wrong.

Huh, can you explain further where you think the benefit is? (The proven wrong bit - well, Gud's made that point.)


Rick - Feb 08, 2006 7:27:36 am PST #5684 of 10002

That's odd. I personally know more than a dozen physicians who, in fact, believe just that. I'd be careful tossing the generalities around.

How do they explain the structure of the human back or knee? Do they consider these to be the designs of an all knowing creator?


§ ita § - Feb 08, 2006 7:30:18 am PST #5685 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

I think it's perfectly possible for ID to have roots in creationism yet have an existence outside it. I want to use the word evolution, but it makes me laugh. All it takes is one person surfing the web and liking its smell.

But that's separating the idea from the movement. Which I do.


Gudanov - Feb 08, 2006 7:30:24 am PST #5686 of 10002
Coding and Sleeping

I'm all sad about the total and utter tainting of the term "Intelligent Design;" when I first heard it several long years ago, it sounded like a perfectly decent descriptor of people who both believe in God and are down with the Big Bang and evolution and all that smart thinky-people stuff, and now it's just another weapon of craxy.

Yeah, it's too bad, because there's nothing unreasonable about believing that God is working within the framework of natural laws to shape the Universe to some plan. Not something I believe, but that doesn't make it crazy.